# Europe and the furor over cartoons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265 "2006-02-06T18:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/1 "2006-02-06T18:08:20Z")
I’ve been following the rising violence over some cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed. I’ve been wondering if there is more hate and rage against our Euro brothers and sisters by the Islamic community than previously though. I mean, the cartoons, while reasonably offensive (I suppose if one has no sense of humor), just don’t seem to warrent such wide spread violence. I don’t recall this level of violence by the muslim community when we invaded either Afghanistan or Iraq. I certainly don’t recall US embassies being burned out and such. Even if there were that level of violence, we had invaded two ‘muslim’ nations…this seems small potatoes compared to that. Couple this with the recent riots in France and you have…what? I’m not sure. I expect this level of violence against the US (for various reasons) but when it happens strictly against Europe (though interestingly enough there were protests at US embassies in various countries over this…though I’m unsure what they expect to accomplish by protesting to us about it 😛 ) it makes me think that there is a lot more under the surface than folks realize. So, for debate: Does this incident show us something about the underlieing tensions that the Islamic community (or at least a vocal part of it) has against Europe? What can/should the Europeans do about it…if anything? Should the Europeans self censor themselves…or should they stand up for free speech even though it sparks this kind of blowup? Assuming it exists, where does this level of rage toward the Europeans come from…the crusades, their colonial past or more recent things? Are these violent protests staged or is there really this level of wrath towards Europe just under the surface? Why isn’t the US singled out for this kind of thing…hell, I’ve seen cartoons of muslims in newspapers here for years (granted they weren’t specifically supposed to be Mohammed, but they were just as cutting)? Finally, why are the European governments being attacked when it was a private newspaper that ran the offending cartoons? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/2 "2006-02-06T18:14:04Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Finally, why are the European governments being attacked when it was a private newspaper that ran the offending cartoons? I think we’re seeing the Arab Muslim equivalent of “_They_ should do something about this!” Besides, if you have a citizenry that’s used to government and religious censorship of nearly everything…obviously it’s the fault of the various governments for not stopping it. I’m kind of glad this is happening - it’s keeping people distracted and slowing down the inevitable “The USA/Israelis used a submarine to sink the ferry to kill a bunch of Muslim pilgrims” conspiracy theories. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/3 "2006-02-06T18:21:25Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I mean, the cartoons, while reasonably offensive (I suppose if one has no sense of humor), just don’t seem to warrent such wide spread violence. For what it’s worth, I think those cartoons went beyond “reasonably offensive” to “deliberately outrageous.” That said, there’s an element of hysteria in the rioting, but I would say that the reaction is a definite reflection of current events – the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, Israel, the pressure on Iran, maybe even the sinking of the Red Sea ferry. There’s a lot of bad feeling abroad at the moment, and those cartoons have concretized it. > [@xtisme](#): > > Finally, why are the European governments being attacked when it was a private newspaper that ran the offending cartoons? My tendentious answer is, “And why did the U.S. attack Iraq when the terrorists who attacked us were neither Iraqi not supported by Iraq?” The truth is that all this stuff tends to get conflated, rightly or wrongly. At a minimum, I suppose, you could accuse the Danish government of failing to act against a clear incitement to racial hatred. Don’t know whether the Danish government has such laws on its books, but some Western democracies do. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/4 "2006-02-06T18:44:45Z")
> [@](#): > > why are the European governments being attacked when it was a private newspaper that ran the offending cartoons? It’s a logical question… But by asking it, you are assuming that the rioters are rational people acting logically. It’s just mob psychology — rational people aren’t taking part in the rioting. The really important question is whether the silent majority (who are rational enough to know better than to run riot) are secretly happy to see the violence. There have been a few cites here quoting Muslim organizations which issued press releases condemning the violence. But I wonder how what they say publicly in English gets translated into Arabic? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/5 "2006-02-06T18:59:16Z")
For context here are the cartoons: [http://cagle.msnbc.msn.com/news/blog/bloggifs/Mohammed-cartoons.jpg](http://cagle.msnbc.msn.com/news/blog/bloggifs/Mohammed-cartoons.jpg) Besides the embassy burnings some in the ME decided to answer “fire” with “fire”: [http://www.cagle.com/news/BLOG/main.asp](http://www.cagle.com/news/BLOG/main.asp) > [@](#): > > Not to be outdone, a Belgian-Dutch Islamic political organization, the Arab European League has started posting cartoons that they think will be as offensive as possible to the Danish. They describe their effort this way: > > “After the lectures that Arabs and Muslims received from Europeans on Freedom of Speech and on Tolerance. And after … many European newspapers republished the Danish cartoons on the Prophet Mohammed. AEL decided to enter the cartoon business and to use our right to artistic expression. > > Just like the newspapers in Europe claim that they only want to defend the freedom of speech and do not desire to stigmatise Muslims,we also do stress that our cartoons are not meant as an offence to anybody and ought not to be taken as a statement against any group, community or historical fact. > > If it is the time to break Taboos and cross all the red lines, we certainly do not want to stay behind.” > > An article in the Jerusalem Post cites a cartoon from the AEL site which has gotten the most attention; it features Holocaust victim Anne Frank in bed with Adolf Hitler after having sex, Hitler says, “Write this one in your diary, Anne.” The cartoon doesn’t appear to be on the AEL site at this time, but I found it here. It appears that the cartoons the AEL thinks will be most offensive to Danes are anti-Semitic cartoons that are not very different from what passes as everyday fare in Arab newspapers. Of-course, for the AEL to make their point effectively, we’ll need to see the Danes respond by marching in the streets, burning embassies, and calling for the executions of AEL cartoonists. So yeah, there is more under the surface and I do think the extremists in the ME are bananas. But we should not ignore how they are being manipulated: Cannot find it now, and in any case I would not link to them, but it seems some bastards in the ME are inflaming the situation by spreading rumors that other more offensive cartoons were published in the Danish press, IIRC the pamphlets in the ME showed the cartoons plus 3 that were even more offensive and never published, like Muhammad biblically knowing a dog, and I have seen reports that the embassies burned when someone spread the false rumor that Danish groups were going to burn the Koran in protest. No wonder they exploded! But it is important to notice that they exploded on added false information from the leaders of the extremists. Which bring me to the half assed response of the Bush administration: how is it that with a bit of Internet searches I found that the rioting was mostly based on slander? I thought the intelligence was better now! The State Department should have defended the freedom of the press without any apology by mentioning the specific falsehoods and exaggerations that propaganda demagogues in ME are using. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/6 "2006-02-06T19:33:41Z")
FWIW, there’s another thread in this forum entitled “[Muslim riots over cartoons–is political correctness going overboard?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357148)” which is already into its third page. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/7 "2006-02-06T19:38:22Z")
They’ve started killing people. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south\_asia/4684652.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm) 4 years ago I posted on this Board that Western Society was in danger. Everybody called me a jackass, because it was _so obvious_ that the Islamic Extremists couldn’t effect us. And I was _obviously_ just a racist, or a worrywart, or a Drama Queen. And now, they’re killing people, & burning embassies. And Iran is building an Atom Bomb. **HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW!?!** :mad: ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/8 "2006-02-06T19:53:20Z")
Some of the assumptions in the OP should be corrected. > [@xtisme](#): > > So, for debate: Does this incident show us something about the underlieing tensions that the Islamic community (or at least a vocal part of it) has against Europe? Not especially. First of all, the protests have mostly been directed specifically at Denmark and Norway, not Europe as a whole (except, perhaps to gain the ear of the European Union, since both countries are EU members). Secondly, nearly all the violent acts that have occurred so far have taken place in a few specific locations that already have a rich reputation for anti-western militancy: Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and most recently and unsurprisingly, Iran. So far, the vast bulk of the Islamic world has not in fact exploded into violence. The western reaction to has happened so far reminds me very much of the way some people managed to conflate a few isolated incdents of Palestinians cheering the 9/11 attacks into the entire Muslim world hating the US. Lastly, while there have been protests in Afghanistan against the US, it seems pretty clear that the real resentment is of some local elements against the US occupation, with the outrage over the drawings a convenient excuse for rioting. > [@](#): > > Couple this with the recent riots in France and you have…what? I’m not sure. Nothing much related. The recent riots in France were primarily of disenfranchised youths who feel ghettoized, shut out from mainstream French society and more specfically, from jobs. It is incidental that many of these young people come from families of recent muslim immigrants, and numerous news reports from France and elsewhere established quite clearly that most of the protesters were indifferent to religious dictates. > [@](#): > > What can/should the Europeans do about it…if anything? Should the Europeans self censor themselves…or should they stand up for free speech even though it sparks this kind of blowup? Free speech prevails, in all cases, but a legitimate question is, what useful purpose was served by running the specific drawings that have caused offense? > [@](#): > > Assuming it exists, where does this level of rage toward the Europeans come from…the crusades, their colonial past or more recent things? Are these violent protests staged or is there really this level of wrath towards Europe just under the surface? Why isn’t the US singled out for this kind of thing…hell, I’ve seen cartoons of muslims in newspapers here for years (granted they weren’t specifically supposed to be Mohammed, but they were just as cutting)? From what I understand, making cartoons of Mohammed at all, much less showing him with a bomb for a turban, is one of the most disrespectful things one can possibly do to a muslim. Some elements within muslim-dominated countries firmly believe the West views them with contempt, wishes to keep them down in any way possible and thinks of them as little more than savages, and the drawings are simply a pointed expression of this disrespect. Some of the protests may have been staged, or have been at least condoned, by local authorities. If the US has not been singled out previously, it most likely is because the US does not have as extensive a presence in the countries where the most violent protests have occurred. Yes, it is counterproductive to protest such an attitude through more savagery, but one can also say that they are simply behaving the way they think we expect them to behave anyway. In any event, the main mistake here is to think, as with the terrorist bogeyman, that this attitude represents that of a majority of muslims. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/9 "2006-02-06T20:03:10Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > They’ve started killing people. > > [BBC NEWS | South Asia | Muslim cartoon fury claims lives](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm) > > 4 years ago I posted on this Board that Western Society was in danger. Everybody called me a jackass, because it was _so obvious_ that the Islamic Extremists couldn’t effect us. > > And I was _obviously_ just a racist, or a worrywart, or a Drama Queen. > > And now, they’re killing people, & burning embassies. And Iran is building an Atom Bomb. > > **HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW!?!** :mad: 😕 The people killed were the idiot protesters when they got cute and attempted to enter the US military bases. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/10 "2006-02-06T20:08:30Z")
Oh, and way to whip up anti-muslim hysteria, there, **Bosda**. I mean, maybe your post WAS in fact some sort of clumsy attempt at satire, but it at least seems to be on the level. > [@](#): > > And now, they’re killing people, & burning embassies. And Iran is building an Atom Bomb. 1. Who is ‘they’? 2) You did read the article you linked to, right? While it’s a bit ambiguous the way it was written, it seems that the two people who died were protesters shot by Afghan police, not the other way round. 3) Psst, a number of other nations have atom bombs. Sweet dreams. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/11 "2006-02-06T20:18:07Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > They’ve started killing people. > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south\_asia/4684652.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm) > > 4 years ago I posted on this Board that Western Society was in danger. Everybody called me a jackass, because it was _so obvious_ that the Islamic Extremists couldn’t effect us. > > And I was _obviously_ just a racist, or a worrywart, or a Drama Queen. > > And now, they’re killing people, & burning embassies. And Iran is building an Atom Bomb. > > **HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW!?!** :mad: Okay, I’ll bite: you’re a worrywart. The world is a big place, and in the grand scheme of things, this is not that huge a deal. Let’s face it, these riots aren’t even the worst thing that happened last week. To say they signal an imminent threat to Western society is an exaggeration of the first order. As **El\_Kabong** rightly pointed out, it’s not the entire Muslim world that’s rioting, just the poorest and most desperate piece of it. In the U.S. we have maybe seven million Muslims, and they’re not notably burning down anything. So why is it that Islam is the problem, and not poverty and disenfranchisement? And parenthetically, I should say that if these cartoons touched a nerve in the Muslim world, then the subsequent rioting has touched a nerve in the West, judging by how many electrons we’ve killed in the SDMB alone. This is what, the sixth thread on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/12 "2006-02-06T20:33:58Z")
Regarding the other even more offensive cartoons, falsely attributed to the Danish press, there is this: [http://counterterror.typepad.com/the\_counterterrorism\_blog/2006/02/fabricated\_cart.html](http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/2006/02/fabricated_cart.html) > [@](#): > > The controversy over the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed is expanding, as more Muslims join the boycott and protests against Denmark and various European newspapers decide to publish the cartoons, mostly out of solidarity with Jyllands Posten and to make a strong political stand. One issue that puzzles many Danes is the timing of this outburst. The cartoons were published in September: Why have the protests erupted from Muslims worldwide only now? The person who knows the answer to this question is Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, a man that the Washington Post has recently profiled as “one of Denmark’s most prominent imams.” > > Last November, Abu Laban, a 60-year-old Palestinian who had served as translator and assistant to top Gamaa Islamiya leader Talaal Fouad Qassimy during the mid-1990s and has been connected by Danish intelligence to other Islamists operating in the country, put together a delegation that traveled to the Middle East to discuss the issue of the cartoons with senior officials and prominent Islamic scholars. > > …. > > On its face, it would appear as if nothing were wrong. However, the Danish Muslim delegation showed much more than the 12 cartoons published by Jyllands Posten. In the booklet it presented during its tour of the Middle East, the delegation included other cartoons of Mohammed that were highly offensive, including one where the Prophet has a pig face. But these additional pictures were NOT published by the newspaper, but were completely fabricated by the delegation and inserted in the booklet (which has been obtained and made available to me by Danish newspaper Ekstra Bladet). ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/13 "2006-02-06T20:37:18Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > They’ve started killing people. > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south\_asia/4684652.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm) > > 4 years ago I posted on this Board that Western Society was in danger. Everybody called me a jackass, because it was _so obvious_ that the Islamic Extremists couldn’t effect us. > > And I was _obviously_ just a racist, or a worrywart, or a Drama Queen. > > And now, they’re killing people, & burning embassies. And Iran is building an Atom Bomb. > > **HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW!?!** :mad: So every Muslim is up in arms? Or perhaps most? How many of the whole are we talking here? In otherwords take a pill Henny Penny, the sky is still intact Peopel, no matter what faith or nationality, are generally idiots when it comes to being in angry mobs. Hell you want stupid and scary look at your average football riot, and that is over a sports event! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/14 "2006-02-06T21:15:34Z")
It’ll be kind of nice to mention it next time a European calls us silly for getting all worked up over a lack of nipple coverage on national television. Look at what a hornet’s nest a little cartoon stirred up. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/15 "2006-02-06T21:18:17Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > It’ll be kind of nice to mention it next time a European calls us silly for getting all worked up over a lack of nipple coverage on national television. Look at what a hornet’s nest a little cartoon stirred up. Kinda setting the bar low, aren’t you? “At least we’re not worse than a violent irrational fundamentalist mob!” ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/16 "2006-02-06T21:20:36Z")
This is the first time I’ve seen the cartoons that people are being offended by. Question: Where in the cartoons does it say these are depictions specifically of Mohammed? As opposed to just any random guy in a turban? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/17 "2006-02-06T22:32:14Z")
And do you think these people wouldn’t have held a massacre inside the Embassy walls, if armed men hadn’t driven them off? Embassies used to be **sacred**! Remember that? Well, forget it. It no longer applies. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/18 "2006-02-06T22:36:47Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > And do you think these people wouldn’t have held a massacre inside the Embassy walls, if armed men hadn’t driven them off? > > Embassies used to be **sacred**! > > Remember that? Well, forget it. It no longer applies. Umm…unless it’s a Chinese embassy with an American bomb screaming toward it. That’s what you meant, I’m sure. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/19 "2006-02-06T22:37:17Z")
Embassies sacred? The British embassy wasn’t that sacred in Dublin after Bloody Sunday. A large group of Irish Catholic civilian protestors burnt it down in protest. Was the sky falling down then too? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265/20 "2006-02-06T22:40:36Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > First of all, the protests have mostly been directed specifically at Denmark and Norway, not Europe as a whole (except, perhaps to gain the ear of the European Union, since both countries are EU members). [nitpick]Norway is not a member of the EU[/nitpick] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-and-the-furor-over-cartoons/343265.md?page=2)