# Europe can't trust the US anymore **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 26, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145 "2025-03-26T16:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/21 "2025-03-26T18:43:49Z")
I’m not “hating Americans”. I’m lamenting the indisputable fact that European intelligence agencies just can’t trust the US and their administration any more. And we’ll all suffer from that. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/22 "2025-03-26T18:46:02Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > If a small European country is in a pickle who do they call? I live in a small European country and I’m getting really tired of telling you you don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/23 "2025-03-26T18:46:56Z")
As others have implied above, it’s not all about the Benjamins: > **[Leaked memo reveals alarming German warnings over Trump](https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-leaked-memo-germany-us-trade-nato-military-defense/)** > > Trump’s second term will bring a “maximum concentration of power with the president,” Germany’s ambassador to the U.S. warns in confidential document obtained by Reuters. The relationship is under scrupulous reconsideration, and for good reason. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/24 "2025-03-26T18:47:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But…most of the European security system was meant to…protect Europe. > > The United States itself is the geographically furthest-from-Europe nation in NATO. It is the least-directly-affected by Russian aggression. _Of course_ it should be Europe stepping up to shoulder most of the burden. Russia isn’t in America’s backyard; Russia is in Europe’s backyard. > > This is like if John helps David install a home security system for David’s home, then David is disgruntled that John isn’t doing more, decades later, to help David maintain it. It’s David’s own defense that is at stake. Europe was never an equal partner with the US. The Cold War was between two superpowers, the US and the USSR. The point of investing in defence of European countries was to prevent more of them falling into the Soviet sphere of influence. The USSR invested in defence of its satellite states for the same reason. Now the Cold War is over, and it’s questionable how much of that rationale still applies. Russia is a threat to Europe, but it’s more reasonable to expect the continent to see to its own defence, especially now the EU exists to coordinate it. And Trump is an isolationist and doesn’t seem to care about US influence internationally. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/25 "2025-03-26T18:52:03Z")
I’m sorry you feel the need to school me. WE KNOW, you live in a small country. You tell us, all the time. I’m proud its working for you. Where are you? Luxembourg? Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/26 "2025-03-26T18:52:25Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > some foreigners greatly exaggerate their fondness for the U.S. in the Good Old Days. I presume I’m one of those furriners you’re talking about. Newsflash: It’s true. A lot of us used to have a lot of fondness for the U.S. Partly due to your contributions during WW2 and the Marshall aid after that. But since Bush 2, your administrations have seriously squandered that credit. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/27 "2025-03-26T19:02:22Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > it’s more reasonable to expect the continent to see to its own defence, especially now the EU exists to coordinate it. Well, that’s what we’re counting on now: We can’t trust that the US will be a reliable ally anymore. Neither can we share intelligence with you, because we can’t trust that it won’t be compromised. We can’t even trust that you won’t initiate aggressions (as in the Greenland aquisition case) It’s a completely new paradigm. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/28 "2025-03-26T19:06:08Z")
As a Canadian, I get resentment about insufficient defence spending, and I would honestly have no problem if Obama or Biden (or Harris if that had been the case), at some defence forum stood up and said something along the lines of: “We [the US] established a post-WW II status quo in which we have become the world’s police and in which other nations have possibly been too dependent on us. As we are currently undergoing something approaching a deficit crisis [or whatever], I am very sorry to announce that we will have to cut back and that you will have to increase your spending accordingly. That’s not to say that we are turning our backs on the free world and, to the extent possible and as necessary, we will support you just as we know that you will collectively continue to support us.” or something. It’s not just the statement of those true facts that are problematic; it’s also that the US has become untrustworthy, aggressive and offensive, to the extent that they can now be considered a threat. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/29 "2025-03-26T19:06:34Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Neither can we share intelligence with you {…} Pretty sure that, in _this_ instance, the person you’re talking to is a Brit 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/30 "2025-03-26T19:06:54Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > If Europeans arent savvy enough to understand half of this country did not, does not support Trumps policies, thats on them. It doesn’t matter to anyone but those dissenters if half the country (assuming that was true) doesn’t support his policies; what matters is that those policies are _implemented._ And that the world can’t trust the US to keep its word, adhere to treaties or maintain a course for more than 4 years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/31 "2025-03-26T19:10:21Z")
Look-If you take the good, you gotta take the bad. You have to take them both, 'cause that’s the facts of life. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/32 "2025-03-26T19:12:30Z")
I likey. ^^ ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/33 "2025-03-26T19:16:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It doesn’t matter to anyone but those dissenters if half the country (assuming that was true) doesn’t support his policies; what matters is that those policies are _implemented._ And that the world can’t trust the US to keep its word, adhere to treaties or maintain a course for more than 4 years. Especially when that half that opposes Trump doesn’t do anything except downplay the obvious danger Trump’s America poses. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/34 "2025-03-26T19:16:17Z")
American dissenters who hear that the rest of the world hates America and whose first concern is that they, personally, have been unfairly accused are very much a part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/35 "2025-03-26T19:16:40Z")
If so, I apologize to @Demontree. Substitute “you” with “the US admin” and my argument stands. ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/36 "2025-03-26T19:24:37Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > “We [the US] established a post-WW II status quo in which we have become the world’s police and in which other nations have possibly been too dependent on us. As we are currently undergoing something approaching a deficit crisis [or whatever], I am very sorry to announce that we will have to cut back and that you will have to increase your spending accordingly. That’s not to say that we are turning our backs on the free world and, to the extent possible and as necessary, we will support you just as we know that you will collectively continue to support us.” or something. Excellent phrasing. Had a Democratic President or even a normal Republican one said something to this effect, it would be hard to argue against it from almost anywhere on the mainstream political spectrum. It’s the belligerence coming from a bleating ignoramus and his coterie of slavish looneytune maniacs that spoils other countries’ appetites to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/37 "2025-03-26T19:37:48Z")
I’m very sorry if you feel attacked by our distrust in your current administration and their fuckups. Unless you voted for them, that is. Then feel free to feel attacked. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/38 "2025-03-26T19:47:00Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I doubt there has been much “we love America” sentiment since the WWII recovery days. For instance, I don’t remember gushing admiration by Europeans in the days of Reagan and Bush II. Lots of resentment and suspicion, which has now been markedly amplified. Agreed, though from my perspective the last time America looked reasonably good to the world was the short-lived Kennedy era. Kennedy was smart and articulate, he and Jackie were regarded as genuine American royalty, and the White House was unironically nicknamed “Camelot” as a mark of respect and admiration. But the Kennedy administration was far from perfect. There was the disastrous attempt at the Bay of Pigs to undo the Cuban revolution, and the Cuban missile crisis very nearly plunged the world into nuclear war. Nevertheless, the history of American federal politics has been mostly a downward spiral, with each new Congress and administration worse than the preceding one, with only a few bright spots in between. And no one – not even a virulent Trump hater like myself – could ever have imagined it being as horrifically bad and dangerous as it is now. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I don’t _deserve_ hatred because I’m American You may not deserve it, but from an international perspective you’re inevitably perceived as part of a collective that enabled this horrific fascist regime that is a threat to the world order and to democracies everywhere, including your own. Even if you weren’t part of the majority that voted for it, you might be part of a different (and often even larger) majority that over the years voted in a spineless Congress that is enabling Trump, in defiance of its fundamental role in the system of checks and balances intended precisely to prevent tyranny from the executive branch. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Why do American individuals have to be concerned about this? As individuals – say, American tourists abroad – the problem they have is although they **might** be nice people, statistically they’re far more likely than tourists from most other nations to be the kind of rude, ignorant, and obnoxious rednecks who typify the stereotype of the Ugly American. And so they’re viewed with suspicion. It doesn’t help that they’re now tainted with the stigma of being citizens of a country that is currently hostile to virtually the entire world (except Russia) and is being run by a demented, power-mad lunatic. As a Canadian, my deep appreciation for the peaceful, compassionate, and prosperous society I live in has now been supplanted by unease about the madman running your government almost without any restraints, and what this might mean for our economy and maybe even our basic autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/39 "2025-03-26T19:50:36Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Europe was never an equal partner with the US. The Cold War was between two superpowers, the US and the USSR. The point of investing in defence of European countries was to prevent more of them falling into the Soviet sphere of influence. The USSR invested in defence of its satellite states for the same reason. > > Now the Cold War is over, and it’s questionable how much of that rationale still applies. Russia is a threat to Europe, but it’s more reasonable to expect the continent to see to its own defence, especially now the EU exists to coordinate it. This. Because firstly yes it’s important to see US military defence in that context; not as some altruistic thing aimed at defending Europe but largely about trying to be the world’s strongest superpower and restraining Russia. Also note that many of the US bases are paid for by the host countries; billions of dollars a year. It’s not the full cost of running those bases, but it’s still a better deal for the US than stationing all those soldiers in the US. I’m not saying it’s necessarily the best deal all factors considered, just adding extra info. And in terms of going forwards, I agree it’s better for all if Europe and other allies are more self-sufficient in defence. Though even there there’s nuance. Should every US ally that formerly relied upon the US nuclear umbrella now pursue their own nuclear weapons? Will we all be safer in that world? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2025, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/40 "2025-03-26T19:59:56Z")
I can readily live with the opprobrium when, if, and – in the current situation – _because_ it’s so readily justified. _“We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow.”_ –Al Franken Nothing ever gets better by pounding our chests, unfurling the US flag, and humming along with **[Kate Smith](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPIeLh7_M0A)**. Nothing good about the USA ever came to be _because of_ the “American Exceptionalism” crowd. Rather, it’s _in spite of_ them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145.md?page=3)