# Europe can't trust the US anymore **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 26, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145 "2025-03-26T16:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/81 "2025-03-27T00:08:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > This is a US that supports authoritarians around the world; Putin, Orban, Erdogan. That’s nothing new. In the past the US supported military dictatorships, in Latin America and elsewhere, because they were anti-communist. The difference here perhaps is that previous presidents were looking after American interests, while it’s not clear Trump cares about anyone’s except his own. Doesn’t make much difference to the people living under a dictator, though. > [@Mijin](#): > > Heck, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, all the things we’d most criticize China for is exactly what MAGA wants to do: blocking criticism of government, government approved news, “re-education” camps, coveting a neighbour’s territory, repression of gay / trans. America isn’t there yet, but the first 3 months have been a lot worse than I expected. Worse than Trump’s whole first term. We’ve still got most of 4 years to go.😬 > [@Mijin](#): > > Values aren’t the reason for China being the antagonist to the US. I think values do play some role in US foreign policy. But I meant values are the reason we as individuals should prefer the US to China, at least for now. > [@Mijin](#): > > I should also be clear that I am not in the position of wanting China or anyone else being “top dog”. I think it’s inevitable for the world to be more multilateral in the 21st century and I would hope we can do this in a peaceful way. > Ok, it might be too optimistic, but I think it’s better than some who desire conflict to maintain hegemony. It probably is inevitable. Unfortunately, multilateralism is almost certain to lead to more and bigger conflicts. When there’s only one superpower, or one regional power, other countries know they can’t win, so they don’t start fights. When there are two or more equal rivals, they know they can compete for resources and influence. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/82 "2025-03-27T00:15:08Z")
C’mon man. The US isn’t attacking Canada over a weapons program. You folks could quickly develop a deterrent in weeks. Just find some smallpox. With regards to Europe and trust. Where is Europe’s proportionate contribution to global security? At some point hard questions and debates will be had and I’m not sure that that is necessarily a bad thing. Especially when many nations, for whatever reason, believe in nationalism without actually understanding that when the world is divided into nations conflicts of interest including militaristic ones are inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/83 "2025-03-27T00:19:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > With regards to Europe and trust. Where is Europe’s proportionate contribution to global security? Those two things are unrelated. The rest of the world doesn’t “trust” the U.S., because we are untrustworthy with sensitive information, supporting the wrong regime in conflicts, and generally being assholes. None of that is related to whether European nations are paying their fair share of defense costs. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/84 "2025-03-27T00:28:56Z")
Well, can’t argue with that! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/85 "2025-03-27T00:41:35Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > You think they’d literally attack with the military? If Canada started BUILDING NUCLEAR WEAPONS? (And it’s obvious to be aimed at who.) I mean, of course there’d be a military attack. Trump would lose his shit and he’d suddenly have way more public support for it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/86 "2025-03-27T01:31:58Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Invading Canada? Pull the other one. I’m not sure anyone would say it’s very likely but no-one should be ruling this out. I mean, look at Greenland: up to a week ago, people are still saying it’s a joke, “take him seriously not literally”, all the standard stuff. But Trump keeps raising it, and steps up the language with things like “we’re going to get it – one way or the other” Now the Vice President, and his wife, and Mark Kelly are going there, despite Greenland saying they are not invited for talks. What’s going on? Is it a joke, or is it like the Project 2025 joke that turned out to be 100% accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/87 "2025-03-27T01:38:45Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > We have overwhelming spent more than any country on foreign aide. For many, many years. And they don’t say “Thank You” nearly enough. Sometimes they don’t even wear suits. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/88 "2025-03-27T01:40:20Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I think values do play some role in US foreign policy. But I meant values are the reason we as individuals should prefer the US to China, at least for now. I just think it’s more complex than “prefer”. There are ways to work with the Chinese and push back in other ways. I lived out in China for 8 years; I love it there. Will visit again in a couple of months time. There are lots of things I could criticize their government for, but lots of things they do pretty well TBH. It’s weird for me how it’s just depicted as Mordor on US news, and British news is only slightly better. I’ve had people tell me that, e.g. what China is doing to Taiwan is _just as bad_ as what Russia has done to Ukraine (and of course such people use such logic as part of their rationale for supporting Russia SMH) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/89 "2025-03-27T01:48:40Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > We have overwhelming spent more than any country on foreign aide. For many, many years. Not per capita or proportional to Gross National Income; in which case the US goes way down the list. Nations with considerably smaller economies, like India and Germany each give over 60% as much as the US. If we’re saying only the absolute figure matters, not proportional to the size of the donor country, well the EU, if we consider it collectively, donates about twice as much as the US. [https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/06/24/official-development-assistance-the-eu-and-its-member-states-remain-the-biggest-global-provider/](https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2024/06/24/official-development-assistance-the-eu-and-its-member-states-remain-the-biggest-global-provider/) > **[List of development aid sovereign state donors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_sovereign_state_donors)** > > International development aid is given by many non-private donors. The first table is based on official development assistance (ODA) figures published by the OECD for members of its Development Assistance Committee (DAC). Non-DAC members included in the OECD's publishing are listed separately. > Luxembourg made the largest contribution as a percentage of gross national income (GNI) at 1.05% and the United Nations’ ODA target of 0.7% of GNI was also exceeded by Norway (1.02%), Sweden (0.99%) and D... ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/90 "2025-03-27T02:08:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > With regards to Europe and trust. Where is Europe’s proportionate contribution to global security? At some point hard questions and debates will be had and I’m not sure that that is necessarily a bad thing. It’s a valid question and as I said upthread: > [@velomont](#): > > As a Canadian, I get resentment about insufficient defence spending, and I would honestly have no problem if Obama or Biden (or Harris if that had been the case), at some defence forum stood up and said something along the lines of: > > “We [the US] established a post-WW II status quo in which we have become the world’s police and in which other nations have possibly been too dependent on us. As we are currently undergoing something approaching a deficit crisis [or whatever], I am very sorry to announce that we will have to cut back and that you will have to increase your spending accordingly. That’s not to say that we are turning our backs on the free world and, to the extent possible and as necessary, we will support you just as we know that you will collectively continue to support us.” or something. > > It’s not just the statement of those true facts that are problematic; it’s also that the US has become untrustworthy, aggressive and offensive, to the extent that they can now be considered a threat. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/91 "2025-03-27T02:34:37Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > There’s gonna be some hollering from Europe about this loss. > Oh, now I see. This is why we’re hated now. We have to pay to play. Pay to play what? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/92 "2025-03-27T03:11:51Z")
Cards, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/93 "2025-03-27T04:03:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > C’mon man. The US isn’t attacking Canada over a weapons program. Of course we would. If they have nukes they can defend themselves and that’s unacceptable; the only question is if we’d invade as soon as possible or skip straight to exterminating them with our own nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/94 "2025-03-27T05:35:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > > > > > Why do American individuals have to be concerned about this? > > > > As individuals – say, American tourists abroad – the problem they have is although they **might** be nice people, statistically they’re far more likely than tourists from most other nations to be the kind of rude, ignorant, and obnoxious rednecks who typify the stereotype of the Ugly American. > > Your “statistics”[are out of date](https://www.smh.com.au/traveller/reviews-and-advice/most-disliked-tourists-by-country-revealed-in-new-research-20190918-h1i4qq.html). At least up until the latest Orange Uproar, USers have been more commonly damned with faint praise. From the current _New Yorker_: 😉 [![](https://i.imgur.com/7civb5D.jpeg) ](https://i.imgur.com/7civb5D.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/95 "2025-03-27T08:03:23Z")
So why wait? Why not a pre-emptive strike with the full fledge of WMD against all weaker nations? Why are we waiting for a situation where we are going to get hit back? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/96 "2025-03-27T08:37:20Z")
Partly because the fascists haven’t been in power that long, and partly because they aren’t as valuable if they’ve been nuked. But I do think we’ll eventually depopulate Africa and South & Central America with nuclear weapons as part of our race war, they are too large to occupy, conquer and genocide with soldiers. We’d nuke Asia, too, but China and Europe have nuclear weapons as well, and by then I expect they’ll have allied against us in self defense. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/97 "2025-03-27T09:35:01Z")
I don’t think @Beckdawrek or any of you need to worry if you land in Denmark. You will be judged on your own behaviour, not on your moronic government. In my job as a taxi driver, I see lots of tourists. None of the Americans have told of unpleasant experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/98 "2025-03-27T09:52:08Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Remember: if you ever wondered what you would have done in 1930s Germany: whatever you’re doing now is what you would have done then. This is clever and catchy, but falls apart if you think about it. But I agree with the basic message re:complacency. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/99 "2025-03-27T10:12:07Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > I was talking about the 60s-90s. Let’s just call it the last half of the 20th century. > [@madmonk28](#): > > America is openly hostile to democracy Now, speaking of the last half of the 20th century and who was openly hostile to democracy, want to talk about all of those little wars that were fought in Africa, Asia, and the Americas to maintain European colonialism in opposition to democracy? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/100 "2025-03-27T10:43:25Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Now, speaking of the last half of the 20th century and who was openly hostile to democracy, want to talk about all of those little wars that were fought in Africa, Asia, and the Americas to maintain European colonialism in opposition to democracy? What on earth does that have to do with the current state of affairs? Seriously, please explain how your comment is relevant to this discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145.md?page=6)