# Europe can't trust the US anymore **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 26, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145 "2025-03-26T16:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/101 "2025-03-27T10:49:23Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Seriously, please explain how your comment is relevant to this discussion. How 'bout this, while we’re talking about how Europe can’t trust America anymore can we at least mention the rise of Trumpist/fascist parties in Europe? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/102 "2025-03-27T11:33:02Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > All time. We have overwhelming spent more than any country on foreign aide. For many, many years. > > There’s gonna be some hollering from Europe about this loss. > Oh, now I see. This is why we’re hated now. We have to pay to play. Or maybe it’s something about America demanding that it be worshipped and adored all the time, no matter what bad things it does. America can never be criticized, you might hurt our tender feelings. The above sentiment is a perfect example, and it explains why Trump may be the leader who reflects us the most accurately. I have spent time overseas with Americans and frankly it’s embarrassing the way they fish for compliments and respect from other countries. I mean come on, maybe your friend’s grandfather stormed the beaches at Normandy, but you certainly didn’t. You’re one person of many, in one country of many. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/103 "2025-03-27T11:45:51Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > I used to love the US, but these days I rather see the US as a serious threat to the Western world and our ideals. As a very educated United States citizen who ardently believes in the ideals that this nation is supposed to stand for, but who has also seen, heard, and observed the wanna-be-dictator who now has his finger on the nuclear trigger, I hardily agree with you. I vividly remember how he dissed NATO in his first term and threatened to withdraw the United States from NATO. As I predicted, I’ve also seen how he intentionally humiliated Volodymyr Zelenskyy and withdrew our support in their fight to keep Putin out. His behavior is paving the way for more Russian incursions into eastern Europe. As a former hard line leader in the KGB, his wet dream is to rebuild the USSR. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/104 "2025-03-27T11:48:01Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > maybe your friend’s grandfather stormed the beaches at Normandy A thing that might not have happened given the popularity of isolationism at the time. If the Japanese hadn’t bombed Pearl there a chance we would have sat WWII out. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/105 "2025-03-27T12:02:23Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > A thing that might not have happened given the popularity of isolationism at the time. If the Japanese hadn’t bombed Pearl there a chance we would have sat WWII out. That’s exactly right. The stupid isolationism we’re seeing now is continuity, not change. WW1 and WW2 were aberrations as far as America coming to the aid of allies at any significant scale, and it happened reluctantly, resentfully, and perilously late. We have this nasty habit of letting our enemies grind themselves down against our allies before we commit, and the audacity to demand to be loved for it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/106 "2025-03-27T12:08:52Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > We have this nasty habit of letting our enemies grind themselves down against our allies before we commit, and the audacity to demand to be loved for it. Yup, seems folks aren’t aware that NATO was the trigger America would use to fight the USSR in WWIII and we’d do it in Europe 'cause when elephants fight it is the grass that suffers and who gives a fuck about the grass. Bonus that NATO gave us the bases to exert our hegemony over the planet. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/107 "2025-03-27T12:15:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > We have this nasty habit of letting our enemies grind themselves down against our allies before we commit, and the audacity to demand to be loved for it. Don’t join the war, but sell or lease weapons to your allies at profit. And even after the war is finished you can exploit your near bankrupt allies. 2006 we finally paid this off: > **[Anglo-American loan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan)** > > Anglo-American loan officially Anglo-American Loan Agreement was a loan made to the United Kingdom by the United States on 15 July 1946, enabling its economy after the Second World War to keep afloat. The loan was negotiated by British economist John Maynard Keynes and American diplomat William L. Clayton. Problems arose on the American side, with many in Congress reluctant, and with sharp differences between the treasury and state departments. The loan was for US$3.75 billion (equivalent to ... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/108 "2025-03-27T12:23:44Z")
“Anymore”? LOL. You’ve been fucking over your allies left and right since the Russians took Berlin. Turns out you guys were actually rooting for the Russians AND for the Nazis (those thanksgiving dinners I keep hearing about must be A LOT more interesting than I gave you credit for) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/109 "2025-03-27T12:32:30Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > You’ve been fucking over your allies left and right since the Russians took Berlin. Turns out you guys were actually rooting for the Russians AND for the Nazis (those thanksgiving dinners I keep hearing about must be A LOT more interesting than I gave you credit for) Whom is this addressed to? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/110 "2025-03-27T12:42:15Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > How 'bout this, while we’re talking about how Europe can’t trust America anymore can we at least mention the rise of Trumpist/fascist parties in Europe? I think that this post demonstrates perfectly the how of America’s fascist collapse and the why Europe should not trust us. The How: This post demonstrates the deep delusions of American Exceptionalism that have brainwashed Americans to believe that America is the greatest nation on earth, America won WWII and everyone else wishes they were Americans. This brainwashing not only impacts the MAGA crowd, but many of the white boomers, who ostensibly are opposed to Trump, but just want to get back to their imagined period of American “Greatness.” Americans have been as brainwashed as any Brezhnev era Soviet. To the extent the American myth was ever true, it was only true for straight white people (and let’s be honest, white men). It wasn’t until 1965 that we passed the Voting Rights Act, our first attempt to universally enfranchise all American adults and the Supreme Court had begun dismantling it by 2013. We had a brief moment showing the potential of America with the election of Obama; which led to a fascist backlash. Roughly half of Americans concluded that if democracy means black president, then we won’t be a democracy anymore. A large segment of the half that didn’t vote for Trump seem incapable of seeing the threat he obviously poses. When people point out that our VP Vance went to Europe to meet with German neo-nazi politicians and call on Europe to embrace far right politics, they bring up WWII. Instead of learning the real lessons of WWII, that fascism needs to be stopped early before it begins territorial expansion, they embrace the false lessons of WWII, that America is awesome. Which brings us to why Europe shouldn’t trust America: Even Europe’s ostensible allies see the alliance with Europe in the context of a childish lie that is based on something America did more than 80 years ago. It ignores the fact that the only time NATO responded militarily to an attack on one of its members was when NATO came to America’s defense on 9-11 (you know, an event from this century). It is a convenient lie that allows Americans to tell themselves that they don’t need to do anything because their great-grandfathers did something once (and then they came home from the war and made sure the blacks got to the back of the bus). America is incredibly dangerous. It is the most powerful nation on earth that is led by a drug addled oligarch and an insane game show host who has clearly formed an alliance with Russia. Said oligarch was allowed to dismantle large pieces of the federal government and the most you get from Americans is to gaslight you that things aren’t as bad as you say, stop being hysterical. And that’s the message from Trumps opponents. Europe absolutely can’t trust America. Assuming Trump can be stopped, it won’t be by us. I really hope it’s you. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/111 "2025-03-27T12:46:06Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This post demonstrates the deep delusions of American Exceptionalism Interesting, since I think that “American Exceptionalism” is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/112 "2025-03-27T12:48:03Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > There’s gonna be some hollering from Europe about this loss. > Oh, now I see. This is why we’re hated now. We have to pay to play. > > That seems wrong, somehow. Homeland Security Advisor Stephen Miller: > [@](#): > > we soon make clear to Egypt and Europe what we expect in return. We also need to figure out how to enforce such a requirement. EG, if Europe doesn’t remunerate, then what? If the US successfully restores freedom of navigation at great cost there needs to be some further economic gain extracted in return. Someone is talking about “pay to play”, and it’s not Europe. This is why America is untrustworthy (among all the other things explicitly mentioned so far). We are not untrustworthy because of a reduced amount of a controlled reduction in military aid. We are untrustworthy because we have taken an official position that we need to “extract economic gain”. We will not spend a penny unless it turns us an immediate profit. That’s not an ally. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/113 "2025-03-27T12:50:05Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Interesting, since I think that “American Exceptionalism” is bullshit. And yet you repeat some of its core tenets. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/114 "2025-03-27T12:51:40Z")
Which ones? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/115 "2025-03-27T13:15:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If Canada started BUILDING NUCLEAR WEAPONS? (And it’s obvious to be aimed at who.) I mean, of course there’d be a military attack. Trump would lose his shit and he’d suddenly have way more public support for it. Generously help fund one of the European countries’ nuclear weapons program? With the secret agreement that you get a share of the results? But you’ve also got to think about whether/when you’d be willing to use them. AFAIK, the US could easily invade and occupy Canada with conventional weapons; would any Canadian government be willing to nuke them in response? Knowing that the US could and probably would respond in kind? There’s no justification for it, especially given the stated aim would presumably be incorporating Canada into the United States rather than killing or enslaving Canadians. > [@Mijin](#): > > I just think it’s more complex than “prefer”. There are ways to work with the Chinese and push back in other ways. Presumably also true of Trump’s America, though it’s bad, and strikes us as more significant when a country gets more authoritarian rather than less. > [@Mijin](#): > > I lived out in China for 8 years; I love it there. Will visit again in a couple of months time. There are lots of things I could criticize their government for, but lots of things they do pretty well TBH. I could guess, but I may as well ask you… What do they do better? And I think there’s a lesson here: that a country can be perfectly pleasant and liveable for the majority of people, despite having no democracy, few civil rights, putting minorities into re-education camps and disappearing people who displease its leaders enough. if you had criticised the Chinese government enough to come to their attention, you likely would have been deported, and no one would be too surprised. What most people primarily want is rule of law and the opportunity to make money and better themselves, and if Trump can provide that, he can probably get away with a lot of abuse of civil rights, as well as some military adventures. Fortunately or not, his tariffs are quite likely to lead to another recession (and when America sneezes, Europe catches a cold ☹), so provided nothing even crazier happens, the Dems have a good chance of winning the next election. And even if they do, we still can’t trust that America will keep its word and stick to treaties in the future. If something takes longer than 4 years, there’s no point bothering. > [@Mijin](#): > > It’s weird for me how it’s just depicted as Mordor on US news, and British news is only slightly better. I’ve had people tell me that, e.g. what China is doing to Taiwan is _just as bad_ as what Russia has done to Ukraine (and of course such people use such logic as part of their rationale for supporting Russia SMH) What is China doing to Taiwan? I thought the issue is what they are likely to do, ie invade, now that America is disinclined to defend Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/116 "2025-03-27T13:25:10Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Generously help fund one of the European countries’ nuclear weapons program? With the secret agreement that you get a share of the results? That would seem to be the only way to manage this. Even that though is hard; THAT program can’t be hidden, really. And Canada has no delivery system. Our armed forces literally has nothing to put a nuclear weapon on - we have no ballistic missiles, of any type, at any range. You could mount a warhead on a gravity bomb to be dropped by a CF-18 but in a war with the USA our air force will be annihilated on Day 1. You need a ballistic missile for the deterrent to be real. I guess you could sneak them over the border and plant them in places, but that is an unforgivable act of war and if found out an American attack would be entirely justified. > [@DemonTree](#): > > AFAIK, the US could easily invade and occupy Canada with conventional weapons; would any Canadian government be willing to nuke them in response? The point of nuclear weapons is you MIGHT. They are meant to make you seem too dangerous to risk it. > [@DemonTree](#): > > There’s no justification for it, especially given the stated aim would presumably be incorporating Canada into the United States rather than killing or enslaving Canadians. No one here believes an American invasion would be to make Canada an actual state, That is nonsense and we all know it. The Trump regime and Project 2025 folks intend to enslave it as a “Territory,” the way Puerto Rico is occupied. That way they get Canada’s wealth and territory and don’t add blue state votes. ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/117 "2025-03-27T15:24:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > No one here believes an American invasion would be to make Canada an actual state, That is nonsense and we all know it. I’m pretty sure Canada would become an actual state. Trump has floated that as the idea, and whenever Trump talks about something and gets the idea fixed in his brain, he’s gonna try and do it. But I’m equally sure that any Canadians alive at the time of the takeover would not automatically become _citizens_. So only a bare few U.S. citizens living in Canada would be able to vote, which justifies the use of aggressive measures against those now-stateless Canadians, and it would make every Canadian congressional district a massive “rotten borough” - electing a representative through the action of very few voters. All we need next is for a few Christian Nationalist veterans of the war to be appointed their own little fiefs of Canadian farmland, and you’ve got massive majorities in both House and Senate. You’d have to pass a law expanding the House of Representatives so that current congresscritters don’t lose their seats, but that’s just a detail. Heck, it might even lead to having to build a new Capitol building with a statue of Donald Trump in the place of the Statue of Freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/118 "2025-03-27T15:42:09Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Or maybe it’s something about America demanding that it be worshipped and adored all the time, no matter what bad things it does. America can never be criticized, you might hurt our tender feelings. The above sentiment is a perfect example, and it explains why Trump may be the leader who reflects us the most accurately. Yeah, [r/ShitAmericansSay](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitAmericansSay/) is full of that sort of “We saved your asses in WWII, so you should just thank us for being the fascists now” stuff ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/119 "2025-03-27T16:18:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And Canada has no delivery system. Our armed forces literally has nothing to put a nuclear weapon on - we have no ballistic missiles, of any type, at any range. You could mount a warhead on a gravity bomb to be dropped by a CF-18 but in a war with the USA our air force will be annihilated on Day 1. You need a ballistic missile for the deterrent to be real. This is a bigger problem. Biological and chemical weapons are easier than nuclear, but you still have to deliver them. > [@RickJay](#): > > The point of nuclear weapons is you MIGHT. They are meant to make you seem too dangerous to risk it. This works well for countries led by crazy dictators, which Canada is not. I suppose there is some possible scenario where it could happen, though. Your best bet might be to focus on drone technology; build those tiny autonomous drones from Black Mirror and you can assassinate Trump and other leaders as necessary. > [@RickJay](#): > > No one here believes an American invasion would be to make Canada an actual state, That is nonsense and we all know it. The Trump regime and Project 2025 folks intend to enslave it as a “Territory,” the way Puerto Rico is occupied. That way they get Canada’s wealth and territory and don’t add blue state votes. If the US gets to the point of invading Canada, it probably wouldn’t be a real democracy any more, at which point there’s not much distinction between state and territory. If no one is voting, there’s no reason to treat former Canadians any differently to Americans. I really don’t see this happening though, I think Trump will get too much pushback. Invading Greenland or otherwise coercively acquiring it seems like more of a real possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2025, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145/120 "2025-03-27T17:25:24Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I could guess, but I may as well ask you… What do [China] do better? I started drafting a response but it may well take the thread off in a hijack. Especially since, if I say something positive about china, I expect someone might chip in with “So you think that makes the treatment of Uighurs ok?” or whatever, and lead to further tangents. (I don’t, FTR) > [@DemonTree](#): > > What is China doing to Taiwan? I thought the issue is what they are likely to do, ie invade, now that America is disinclined to defend Taiwan. You’re exactly right, but that’s my point, that because China’s the primary antagonist right now, the threat is repeated over and over, versus obviously American right-wing media being very Russia “sympathetic” right now. To the insane extreme of some people saying the Taiwan conflict is already worse than Ukraine. Again, I need to leave it there as it’s a tangent, but I’ll finish by saying that _of course_ I think Taiwan should be independent, or at least freely have the choice of independence, before people accuse me of being a China agent or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-cant-trust-the-us-anymore/1016145.md?page=7)