# Europe is mucking around with U.S. politics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 18, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414 "2004-11-18T03:49:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/21 "2004-11-18T10:49:40Z")
I must have missed the part where the EU did _anything like_ what the US did to [steel tariffs](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2889757.stm). There was talk of retaliatory tariffs on battleground-state products like Florida fruit juice: _that_ would have been “meddling”. The EU decided that discretion was the better part of valour and opted for rehabilitation of the trade criminal in place of punishment. Looks like it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/22 "2004-11-18T11:04:15Z")
[QUOTE=dufferNo, dear **Waverly** , you are the idiot. Or ill-informed and a partisan hack. Pick one. Your simplistic and childish insults would concern me, but that would insult idiots, simpletons and children.[/QUOTE] Partisan? I don’t think you know what this word means. Care to guess with which political party I am registered? [Here’s one good article](http://www.fortune.com/fortune/investing/articles/0,15114,525644,00.html), although you need a membership to see the whole thing. [Or, download the full pdf.](http://www.fhsu.edu/econ/rterry/Trade%20Deficit.pdf) When you feel you are ready, come back and explain to me how this particular deficit is something we should be “not too worried about.” Should I also not worry about personal credit card debt? Should I stop looking at debt to assets as a measure of a company’s health? C’mon, amaze us with your economic acumen. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/23 "2004-11-18T11:44:01Z")
Europe is employing the exact same tactics that the US used in the “banana war”. US accused Europe of freezing out South American bananas (and consequently US headed companies) from its markets. So the US [announced tariffs on totally unrelated EU products to ‘focus minds’.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/315387.stm) Which you could well say was ‘mucking around’ with EU politics. It’s taken them since 1999 until [just last month](http://www.forbes.com/business/manufacturing/feeds/ap/2004/10/27/ap1613760.html) to resolve the matter. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/24 "2004-11-18T15:16:01Z")
> [@](#): > > **UselessGit** of all the things to get upset about, this is what you’re pitting? I thought it might be a good argument for the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/25 "2004-11-18T15:20:45Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > I thought it might be a good argument for the pit. And you were right. It’d have sunk like a stone in MPSIMS or GD. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/26 "2004-11-18T15:27:28Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Well, we’ve already shown that multi-billion dollar debts can be paid off in under 20 years. Not too worried about it when wartime spending will decrease eventually. If only [international finance](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/10196079.htm?1c) had your confidence. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/27 "2004-11-18T15:47:06Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > andros: How is this “mucking around with US politics?” > > > [@](#): > > > > vocal U.S. sectors that could help Congress focus its mind on compliance > > Is that clear? What, they’re not supposed to seek any friendly voices over here to lobby for the problem to be corrected? You rather they just pay off some of our Congressmen directly? We do it to them, they do it to us, in the end a settlement is reached, we march on. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/28 "2004-11-18T16:21:04Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > I thought it might be a good argument for the pit. So you were looking for an argument to break out or something by posting nationalistic drivel about the ferriners taking our jobs, our money or stealing our democratic processes and how it’s so unfair? I mean, do you really feel the way you made it seem that you feel in your OP, or is that bullshit, too? Sam ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/29 "2004-11-18T16:40:32Z")
> [@](#): > > **GaWd:** you were looking for an argument to break out Yes I admit it. I wanted people to argue about politics in the Pit. > [@](#): > > posting nationalistic drivel about the ferriners taking our jobs, our money or stealing our democratic processes Were did I post this? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/30 "2004-11-18T16:42:43Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > Yes I admit it. I wanted people to argue about politics in the Pit. > > Were did I post this? [Europe is mucking around with US politics](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287281) Always glad to oblige. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/31 "2004-11-18T16:46:03Z")
It is true “Mucking” is abrasive. But its not > [@](#): > > posting nationalistic drivel about the ferriners taking our jobs, our money or stealing our democratic processes ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/32 "2004-11-18T16:54:14Z")
I suppose that was juuuuuuuuuuuust a bit over the top. However the exercise of opening an OP like this would normally break into: > [@](#): > > posting nationalistic drivel about the ferriners taking our jobs, our money or stealing our democratic processes I apologize for the cheap shot. I am however sick to death of posters posting trolling\* OPs on politics, and I suppose just a bit sensitive to that fact. Sam - > [@](#): > > Yes I admit it. I wanted people to argue about politics in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/33 "2004-11-18T17:02:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I suppose that was juuuuuuuuuuuust a bit over the top. No problem. Sadly this article seems less interesting this morning than it was last night. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/34 "2004-11-18T17:25:29Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > Sadly this article seems less interesting this morning than it was last night. That’s because your dumb OP has been flogged to death by fact. > [@duffer](#): > > Well, we’ve already shown that multi-billion dollar debts can be paid off in under 20 years. Not too worried about it when wartime spending will decrease eventually. Dude, this is just scary. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/35 "2004-11-18T18:05:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **World Eater** That’s because your dumb OP has been flogged to death by fact. What fact? And what is dumb about it? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/36 "2004-11-18T18:23:23Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > What fact? And what is dumb about it? What’s _not_ dumb about it? Once more for the cranially challenged: The US imposed tariffs on steel that were promptly found to be illegal by the WTO. So, okay, this isn’t illegal as in criminal according to US law, but it’s illegal as in violating a treaty other nations believed had been signed in good faith by the US. Hence, unless the US wants to be known as being incapable of living up to its word, it needs to drop the steel tariffs. (Although some might think that would be rather like closing the gate after the horses have already escaped.) Since the US is dragging its feet on rescinding the tariffs the EU is entitled, according to the WTO, to impose retaliatory tariffs. Now, since the whole point of such tariffs is to provide an incentive for the US to get off its ass and actually fulfill its treaty obligations, it would be pretty brain-dead of the EU to do anything _other_ than design the retaliatory tariffs to provide maximal incentive for US lawmakers to rescind the steel tariffs. Since it has become blatantly obvious to the rest of the world that appealing to the American government to live up to its treaty obligations on the basis of that being the Right Thing to Do is bloody useless because the US government apparently doesn’t give a shit about breaking promises its made, the EU has decided to appeal to the baser motivations of US lawmakers. What the hell else are they supposed to do? Sooner or later all this treaty-breaking is going to come back and bite y’all right in the ass. It’s really hard to negotiate favourable international deals when nobody believes a word you say. Carrying a big stick might make people politely pretend to listen to what you say, but it sure as hell can’t make them believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/37 "2004-11-18T18:28:42Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > There was talk of retaliatory tariffs on battleground-state products like Florida fruit juice: _that_ would have been “meddling”. Yeah, that probably would have come closest to “mucking around with U.S. politics”. **bannerrefugee** , though, apparently thinks that currently targeting U.S. industries which would be most vocal and/or influential in Congress constitutes some sort of dastardly, shocking foreign interference. Which, given the history of these squabbles, is difficult to see. You’d be better served debating the anti-dumping legislation on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/38 "2004-11-18T18:29:08Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > What fact? The list of all the “meddling” the US has done. > [@](#): > > And what is dumb about it? Everything. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/39 "2004-11-18T18:32:22Z")
Psst… **Gorsnak**. The steel tariffs, they are no more. This is over an anti-dumping law which the President has already said he’d try to fix and which Congress _almost_ got fixed prior to the elections. They’ll probably get it done during the lame-duck session. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414/40 "2004-11-18T18:35:59Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > What fact? And what is dumb about it? I’m sorry, I thought maybe you had realized the error of your ways and the ignorance of your position. Britain, and by extension America have used these exact policies and principles to keep other nations at a disadvantage for the last 200 years or so. Quotas, tariffs, and as of late, dumping/anti-dumping legislation, penalties and biased decisions for violating dumping(I seem to remember a ridiculous decision concerning a Polish company and them getting convicted of dumping), have been the norm. So your OP is based on a flawed idea that we’re somehow being violated by the EU using trade legislation in the same manner as we have up to the current time. People have told you it is hair-brained. People(like me), have asked you to do a little reading on trade and dumping and the use of laws concerning them by countries like the U.S. Sam [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-is-mucking-around-with-u-s-politics/275414.md?page=3)