# Europe should call off its mission impossible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552 "2002-12-04T23:31:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/41 "2002-12-06T00:17:02Z")
december, Have you ever considered the possibility that Europe might not have as a primary goal to “participate meaningfully in any military coalition that might deal with dangers from weapons of mass destruction”, especially in a pre-emptive manner. Oh, and since you complain about the supposed bias of everyone’s sources, you might be interested in knowing that the Rand Corporation is chaired by Frank C. Carlucci. Does that name ring any bells? If you went looking for a person who would push for more military spending, he’d be your man. There’s something quite amazing about an organization that is paid by the government to push agendas which will profit their own external companies, such as The Carlyle Group (if there was such a thing as the Illuminati, this is the first place I’d look for it). Where can I get a gig like that? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/42 "2002-12-06T01:20:43Z")
\*\*PhiloVance \*\*, we had a thread discussing this some time ago. Different people like different styles. I prefer to keep full quotes to a minimum although I do use them when I feel it is necessary. One reason is I prefer avoid clutter and make threads and pages shorter. Often I am responding to points one by one and quoting each point would require a lot of coding which I would inevitably mess up. Sometimes I will mention tyhe name of the poster I am responsing to if I feel it is appropriate but others I prefer to just quote the phrase I am referring to but not the author. I may do this because I believe even the quote is not necessary but for someone who may be a bit lost. If that reader is truly interested he can always search for the author. Other times I may do this more deliberately when I am trying to refute a point without getting more personally entangled with the author. This is the reason I will more often cite the name of posters I am agreeing with or commending. That is a brief explanation of the reasons for my style. Thanks for your observation which I will take into account. Getting back to **december** and his long history of Europe bashing I just see that his threads and his opinion can be summed up as: Europe is a bad thing because they are different (meaning worse) from the USA and there is no valid reason why they should want to be different from the USA. They are bad because they want to do things their way instead of just doing what the USA tells them which (obviously) would be better. He scoffs at any plan or proposal which would make Europe a bit better or succeed in anything. Europe is just doomed to failure and anything they try is to be scorned. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t. The only way Europe could possibly please december is by doing evrything the US tells them. . . or maybe collective suicide would be better. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/43 "2002-12-06T01:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \*[**december**]scoffs at any plan or proposal which would make Europe a bit better or succeed in anything. That’s exactly backwards. I am opposing this military plan, because I think it will NOT succeed at making Europe better – a point I’ve already made several times in this thread. > [@](#): > > Europe is just doomed to failure and anything they try is to be scorned. Europe has been the cradle of western civilization. I am indeed concerned that certain flaws in the\* EU structure\* may doom Europe to economic, military and moral failure – failures that would hurt not only Europe, but the whole world. If you really want to understand where I’m coming from, I believe strongly in economic freedom and political freedom, including low taxes, power in the hands of the voters, separation of powers, freedom to make contracts, etc. I would like the EU to be better on these issues. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/44 "2002-12-06T01:48:32Z")
**december:** _Europe has been the cradle of western civilization._ 🙂 **december** does his absolute damnedest to think of something nice to say about Europe and what he comes up with is the fact that it has a civilization. (But it was out of the “cradle” at least several hundred years ago, so we don’t have to give them any credit for anything more recent.) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/45 "2002-12-06T01:49:23Z")
In the OP I argued that _“Given [Europe’s] social spending obligations, they hardly have the political will now to tolerate the economic and/or political upheaval that would result from huge defence spending. So, they aren’t going to do it…”_[Today’s London Times](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-503004,00.html) provides evidence. > [@](#): > > December 05, 2002 > > **Germany presses ahead with cuts in arms spending** > > GERMANY will today reject international pressure to increase its defence budget and announce big cuts in spending on key arms projects. > > The saving, which is aimed at trimming about €6 billion (£3.8 billion) from an already overstrained defence budget, comes amid a heated national debate about economic management… > > However, November’s unemployment figures again rose above four million, showing the fastest month-on-month rise since unification… > > The emergency in defence spending highlights Germany’s larger problem: the Government of Herr Schröder is committed to becoming a fully fledged alliance partner able and willing to participate in combat missions abroad (apart from possible war in Iraq). \*\*At the recent Nato summit, it pledged to narrow the gap between American and European defence efforts. > > However, it cannot finance the changes, the equipment or training needed to turn its conscription army into a flexible, global force.\*\* (my emphasis) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/46 "2002-12-06T02:04:09Z")
I have no idea whether or not **December** hates Europeans, but I do know if I did want to read threads about how **December** hates Europeans, I wouldn’t look in GD. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/47 "2002-12-06T02:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RobertTB \* > \*\*[ > > Frankly, I’d like to see a ‘Eurocorps’ or whatever. \*\* Nitpick : the Eurocorps already exists. It the Franco-Germano-Spano-Beneluxian unit I was refering to in a previous post. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/48 "2002-12-06T02:21:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > I would like the EU to be better on these issues. “Better” as defined by your set of values. Unfortunately for you, Europeans are not obligated to share your values. You want Europe to be free so long as they do what you want, not what they want. They are doing what they want. It’s called democracy. Get over it. By the same token Europe would probably like the US to not have the death penalty, to not be so violent, to have better social programs and to not go around invading other countries at the drop of a hat. And yet we do not have a European poster who continually feels the need to open threads expressing his heartfelt concern for the sorry state of the USA and its barbaric practices. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/49 "2002-12-06T02:24:45Z")
\>\> the Franco-Germano-Spano-Beneluxian unit Man, with a name like that no wonder they can’t get anything done. I bet they spend most of the time trying to learn to pronounce the name. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/50 "2002-12-06T02:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > > If you really want to understand where I’m coming from, I believe strongly in economic freedom and political freedom, including low taxes, power in the hands of the voters, separation of powers, freedom to make contracts, etc. I would like the EU to be better on these issues. IOW, as **sailor** pointed out, you would want her to be more like the US… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/51 "2002-12-06T02:31:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*And yet we do not have a European poster who continually feels the need to open threads expressing his heartfelt concern for the sorry state of the USA and its barbaric practices. \*\* Though to be fair, we both know about another board where such posters are fairly common… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ShetlandPony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@ShetlandPony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShetlandPony)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/52 "2002-12-06T16:42:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Well hey, they can’t possibly screw it up as badly as they did with the whole common currency mess, right? Right? \*\* DUUH!! Cite Please ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/53 "2002-12-06T17:52:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _sailor said in reply to MrThompson_ > > Wary? What exactly are you afraid of? That America would be in less of a position to unilaterally push other countries around? I can see that as nothing but a good thing. If I remember correctly **MrT** is in fact in the UK and quite skeptic towards anything that might strengthen and solidify his own federal government. As for **december** … gee whiz pop old boy, will you ever give up? I am frankly amazed at your tenacity. What really gets to me is that I agree with some little few parts of your criticism of the EU system. HOWEVER, in difference to you I will readily admit that I might be wrong and that although I embrace more US-like libertarianism and fiscal conservatism the opposite works as well, just not exactly the way I like it. Hold your breath, cover your ears and holler as much as you will **december** , you still won’t be the fountain of all wisdom and absolute truth. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/54 "2002-12-06T19:52:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*Nitpick : the Eurocorps already exists. It the Franco-Germano-Spano-Beneluxian unit I was refering to in a previous post. \*\* Cue [Tom Lehrer]([http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/) 17FD169D92E2323748256A7D00259EBC) on the Multi-Lateral Force: "Once all the Germans were warlike and mean, But that couldn’t happen again. We taught them a lesson in nineteen eighteen, And they’ve hardly bothered us since then. So sleep well, my darling, the sandman can linger, We know our buddies won’t give us the finger. Heil–hail–the Wehrmacht, I mean the Bundeswehr, Hail to our loyal ally!" Is that your source of inspiration, **december**? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552/55 "2002-12-06T20:52:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*Is that your source of inspiration, **december**? I am a big Tom Lehrer fan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europe-should-call-off-its-mission-impossible/140552.md?page=2)