European contact with the New World... how could it have played out better?

Great Debates
81

Possibly, but I think it is problematic. You’d need regular reintroductions to make it work for a number of diseases. For example some of the potent killers were relatively older diseases like typhoid fever, epidemic typhus or smallpox and might be transported by your hypothetical Carthaginian. But others like scarlet fever and measles may be medieval in origin and would need a 12th century Basque or something. And influenza strains, which might have largely wiped out the Arawak, are of course notoriously variable in time.

In addition some of these like measles require a host population of sufficient size to support them long term in a population ( estimated at .25-.5 million for measles ) - so if a measles-infected Basque sailor managed to transport the virus to even a mainland coastal region, it might just devastate a local lightly populated area to the point where it establishes a dead zone firebreak and dies out without propagating throughout the continent.

Other diseases like tuberculosis possibly already were in the New World, but anciently diverged Old World strains were potentially more lethal to them. It has been argued that the opposite was the case with Syphilis - that there were New and Old World strains and the NW one was worse. In later centuries apparently a less pathogenic strain of smallpox diverged in situ in South America. Bugs change over time.

So it’s possible that at least some disease would require semi-continuous contact to propagate robust enough immune systems. Speculative of course, but we are speculating ;).

82

smiling bandit in general in GD I have found that those who feel the need to attempt to insult other posters have very little to add to any conversation and I have no particular desire to continue what has become a hijack of a pissing match with you.

I will leave it at this:

You claim that “conquistadors absolutely did not” use full plate armor and then quote this: “Later in the conquest, as conquistadors realized that full suits of armor were overkill in the New World, some of them switched to lighter chainmail …” as evidence of the truth of that statement and the ignorance of anyone who disagrees. Wow. I bow. Yup, some later switching out from it is the same as absolutely did not. Yup that shows … absolutely … how little reading comprehension I have.

You believe that the application of more modern production methods and adapting a handheld cannon into a firearm (which from what little I do know were not much used in the conquest of the Incans anyway) somehow invalidates my position that the biggest advantage that Europeans over the native populations had was exposure to a much greater world of ideas to borrow from to develop (and yes, with full recognition that there is no objective standard for this word, IMHO, at that point in time, “marginally” … albeit still with significant impact). Fine. I will disagree with you and fail to be convinced by huffs of well then I am ignorant.

What evs.

From my end this hijack is over.

83

Yup, you would need a series of accidental contacts - not one Cartheginian, but someone every coupla centuries.

Who knows, there may well have been such contacts, but just through luck significant diseases were not transmitted. We know for example that Vikings contacting Beothuks did not result in old world disease transmission.

84

Translation: The ones that (we force to) convert are ok, the rest…

85

I knew that, but I forget why they wanted it kept to a minimum.
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Sorry, guys, I missed that you had already raised this point when I made my post # 76 - surfing a long thread on an iPhone isn’t optimal!

As for why the prohibition on settlement, let’s let King George speak for himself:

[QUOTE=King George III]
And whereas it is just and reasonable, and essential to our Interest, and the Security of our Colonies, that the several Nations or Tribes of Indians with whom We are connected, and who live under our Protection, should not be molested or disturbed in the Possession of such Parts of Our Dominions and Territories as, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are reserved to them. or any of them, as their Hunting Grounds.–We do therefore, with the Advice of our Privy Council, declare it to be our Royal Will and Pleasure. that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our Colonies of Quebec, East Florida. or West Florida, do presume, upon any Pretence whatever, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass any Patents for Lands beyond the Bounds of their respective Governments. as described in their Commissions: as also that no Governor or Commander in Chief in any of our other Colonies or Plantations in America do presume for the present, and until our further Pleasure be known, to grant Warrants of Survey, or pass Patents for any Lands beyond the Heads or Sources of any of the Rivers which fall into the Atlantic Ocean from the West and North West, or upon any Lands whatever, which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us as aforesaid, are reserved to the said Indians, or any of them.

And We do further declare it to be Our Royal Will and Pleasure, for the present as aforesaid, to reserve under our Sovereignty, Protection, and Dominion, for the use of the said Indians, all the Lands and Territories not included within the Limits of Our said Three new Governments, or within the Limits of the Territory granted to the Hudson’s Bay Company, as also all the Lands and Territories lying to the Westward of the Sources of the Rivers which fall into the Sea from the West and North West as aforesaid.

And We do hereby strictly forbid, on Pain of our Displeasure, all our loving Subjects from making any Purchases or Settlements whatever, or taking Possession of any of the Lands above reserved. without our especial leave and Licence for that Purpose first obtained.

And. We do further strictly enjoin and require all Persons whatever who have either wilfully or inadvertently seated themselves upon any Lands within the Countries above described. or upon any other Lands which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians as aforesaid, forthwith to remove themselves from such Settlements.

And whereas great Frauds and Abuses have been committed in purchasing Lands of the Indians, to the great Prejudice of our Interests. and to the great Dissatisfaction of the said Indians: In order, therefore, to prevent such Irregularities for the future, and to the end that the Indians may be convinced of our Justice and determined Resolution to remove all reasonable Cause of Discontent, We do. with the Advice of our Privy Council strictly enjoin and require. that no private Person do presume to make any purchase from the said Indians of any Lands reserved to the said Indians, within those parts of our Colonies where, We have thought proper to allow Settlement: but that. if at any Time any of the Said Indians should be inclined to dispose of the said Lands, the same shall be Purchased only for Us, in our Name, at some public Meeting or Assembly of the said Indians, to be held for that Purpose by the Governor or Commander in Chief of our Colony respectively within which they shall lie: and in case they shall lie within the limits of any Proprietary Government. they shall be purchased only for the Use and in the name of such Proprietaries, conformable to such Directions and Instructions as We or they shall think proper to give for that Purpose: And we do. by the Advice of our Privy Council, declare and enjoin, that the Trade with the said Indians shall be free and open to all our Subjects whatever. provided that every Person who may incline to Trade with the said Indians do take out a Licence for carrying on such Trade from the Governor or Commander in Chief of any of our Colonies respectively where such Person shall reside. and also give Security to observe such Regulations as We shall at any Time think fit. by ourselves or by our Commissaries to be appointed for this Purpose, to direct and appoint for the Benefit of the said Trade:
[/QUOTE]

To summarise, the purpose of the Proclamation was to protect the Indians; to provide security for their possession of their own lands; to prevent the “great frauds and abuses” which had previously occurred.

Now, the King wasn’t just doing this out of the goodness of his heart; this policy was designed to keep the Indian allies peaceful and contented under British sovereignty. But, it was a policy that tried to balance the interests of the colonists and the First Nations.