# European energy crisis, 2022/2023 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [August 28, 2022, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467 "2022-08-28T12:23:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/41 "2022-09-27T16:15:23Z")
Or, someone was worried about some countries getting cold feet and making a deal with Russia for gas in return for supporting the annexation of the Donbas, so they decided to take that option off the table… ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/42 "2022-09-27T17:28:36Z")
This is puzzling. These pipelines can be switched on or off from at either end: Russia or Germany. When they are in operation Natural Gas flows to Germany and money flows to Russia. So in whose interest is it to sabotage the Nordstream pipelines? The Baltic states were never happy with being bypassed by Nordstream. But probably the country with the most lose by those pipelines being brought back into operations is…Ukraine. They get transit fees for the natural gas pumped through their network from Russia to the west. If the Nordstream pipelines became operational the gas pipelines passing through Ukraine could be bypassed. This would lead to a loss of revenue, but more importantly, the end of supply to the domestic market in Ukraine, which would put the government under a lot of pressure this winter. The only other way to get gas into the Ukraine network would be to reverse the flow from west…and there are a lot of other countries relying on that approach this winter. The only countries that do not benefit from this sabotage are Germany and Russia. They have lost two bargaining chips. > **[Russian gas threat in Europe](https://www.reuters.com/graphics/UKRAINE-CRISIS/GAS/gdpzynlxovw/)** > > The crisis in Ukraine tests Europe’s dependence on Russian gas against Russia’s dependence on European energy customers ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/43 "2022-09-27T17:36:56Z")
Maybe it is Russia sending a message that all other undersea pipelines are vulnerable in the same way should it wish to plunge Europe into the freezer this winter. The security of the new Norwegian gas pipeline to Poland must be serious concern. . ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/44 "2022-09-27T18:09:24Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > Maybe it is Russia sending a message that all other undersea pipelines are vulnerable in the same way should it wish to plunge Europe into the freezer this winter. > > The security of the new Norwegian gas pipeline to Poland must be serious concern. There are any number of things, including this, that Russia could do to attack Europe - if they don’t mind triggering an Article 5 response. Not sure why threatening to attack pipelines is a category of threat so special that it warrants a demonstration. It’s not even terribly deep (~300ft), so it’s not like this sort of destruction is a special technical capability that needs to be demonstrated before other pipeline owners will take the threat seriously. Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised, but there’s already a Wikipedia page about it: > **[2022 Nord Stream pipeline sabotage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_gas_leaks)** > > Eastern Ukraine campaign > Southern Ukraine campaign > Other regions ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/45 "2022-09-27T18:20:06Z")
If the pipeline portion in question is only 300 ft down, any technical diver could do the job. You don’t need a government. It could be an environmental group or terrorists or any number of people. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2022, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/46 "2022-09-27T20:37:12Z")
heck, you don’t even need a diver … 10kg C4 on a fishing line and a camera and you are good to go ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/47 "2022-09-28T08:35:35Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > 10kg C4 on a fishing line Well, according to experts in the Danish and Swedish news, 100 kg. I guess we will get some answers in a few days. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/48 "2022-09-28T08:59:12Z")
It’s not quite as trivial as that I think. The waters south and east of Bornholm seem not to be the regular deep water shipping route (that goes between Bornholm and Sweden) but according to vessel tracking there is noticeable traffic there. The leak was pretty soon noticed by the Danish Air Force - they would be patrolling these waters, and a stationary vessel over the pipeline would run the risk of being noticed. 100 kg of explosive is not a rounding error, so I assume it cannot be missing from some legitimate civilian stock and stay missing. I _very much_ hope that this is either not the work of some non-Russian state actor, or failing that that at least they do not get found out. It would turn that postulated Western country or Ukraine (as applicable) from an ally to an enemy of Germany - to no purpose. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467/49 "2022-10-02T14:53:47Z")
> [@Why would the Nord Stream pipelines have been sabotaged?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-would-the-nord-stream-pipelines-have-been-sabotaged/972320/107): > > I do work with Pipeline and Flow Assurance Engineers and know a little bit. Waited till the weekend to do some calcs. Hope this helps : Lets look at Nord Stream 1 : It would actually take quite a lot. The pipeline deign pressure was in excess of 200 bar (2901 psi). " The pipelines have a constant internal diameter of 1,153 millimetres. However, Nord Stream designed the pipeline with three different design pressure sections (220, 200 and 177.5 bar) and pipe wall thicknesses (34.4, 30.9 and 26.… I posted the above. It will be hard to sabotage the pipeline without intimate and current knowledge of the location. Marine pipelines are buried in trenches and unless you have good intel, you wont be able to locate them undersea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-energy-crisis-2022-2023/970467.md?page=2)