# European Far-Right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083 "2010-12-14T04:03:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/21 "2010-12-14T12:42:03Z")
> [@Baboonanza](#): > > True. The BNP in many ways the traditional/old-fashioned working mans party, essentially a Racist Old Labour. Sounds rather similar to the Scandinavian right-wingers (the Danish [Fremskridtspartiet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Denmark)), the Norwegian [Fremskrittspartiet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremskrittspartiet) and the Swedish [Folkpartiet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_People's_Party_(Sweden))). Although those parties have had their share of ideological libertarians, they’ve used more of a xenophobic, anti-immigration (by darker-skinned people, especially Moslems) populist rhetoric lately. [In Norway, they threw out most of their libertarian representatives in the early 1990s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremskrittspartiet#Schism_with_libertarians_.28early_1990s.29), cultivating their ill-defined populist rhetoric along lines not dissimilar to that of the Dutch Pim Fortuyn List, the Belgian Vlaams Belang, the French Front National and the Freedom Party of Austria. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/22 "2010-12-14T15:47:00Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > **UDS** , your suggestions don’t explain why Britain, with an FPTP system and a strong conservative party, has elected a significant number of far right candidates in recent years while Ireland, with PR-STV and only centre-right parties, the far right is non-existent. Easy. That’s because the far right wants to turn back the clock to the Good Old Days, and England, unlike Ireland, **had** Good Old Days. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/23 "2010-12-14T15:49:55Z")
In the UK, in the late 1970’s, the National Front surged in public support. They were defeated by various factors, including mobilization of youth against them, and the (typical far right) in fighting. But the most important was the cooption of their anti-immigrant message by Margaret Thatcher. As the Tories moved away from this view, the far right crawled out from under the fridge again, and became more popular. As people have said, the same pattern can be seen in the US. There’s no need for a separate far right grouping when the Republican party embraces the racists and they form a significant grouping within that party. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/24 "2010-12-14T16:56:02Z")
I think these things just go in multi-generational cycles. There’s certainly nothing intrinsic to the culture that says that European parties should be more progressive, on average, than Americans. I mean, if you ask my mother whether Europeans are more enlightened than Americans she’d laugh in your face. She was imprisoned in Bergen-Belsen. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/25 "2010-12-14T17:10:47Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Well, it could be partly due to the electoral system. In a proportional/alternative vote system, people are more likely to register “protest” votes or to vote for marginal candidates, on the basis that they can redirect their votes (in the case of a French presidential election, in the runoff ballot a week later) in a way actually likely to influence the outcome. > > A second factor you would want to look at is whethe the right-ish leaning voter has a candidate other than the Le Pen type to vote for. If the French election didn’t have a candidate broadly corresponding to the Republican candidate in a US presidential election, then rightish voters had to choose between Le Pen, and a much more centrist candidate than they would wish. Rightish US voters may be better served by the generally more right-leaning slant of US candidates. Do you think a system where the American voters could re-direct would be influential here in the States? Say independents make up 15-20% of the total population, if they really wanted their voices heard they could vote their minds with the knowledge that whomever changed their platform to suit their needs go that percentage. Granted the electoral college would need to go bye bye. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/26 "2010-12-14T17:13:00Z")
It’s also worth asking: how do you define “Far right”? I ask seriously, because the media often use simplistic labels for complicated politicians with complicated combinations of views. When Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was murdered several years ago, American media outlets invariably called him a “right wing” or “far right” politician. But Fortuyn was an openly gay Marxist! What made him a “right wing” politician in the American media’s eyes? Why, the fact that he was hostile to Muslim immigrants. Aparently, if you don’t embrace the concept of open borders, you’re “far right.” But wait… Fortuyn wasn’t hostile to immigrants because of their skin color. He was hostile because he believed (with some justice) that the freedom gays like himself enjoy in the Netherlands would be destroyed if Muslims ever became a potent political force there! Many people are quick to assume that racism is the ONLY possible explanation for anyone to be hostile to Middle Eastern immigrants. That’s not the case. Let’s look at France’s leading “far right” politician, Monsieur LePen. You probably THINK you know his stance on immigration from Africa and the Middle East. But what are his OTHER policies? Does he favor dismantling France’s generous welfare state? Building up France’s armed forces? Do you know? Does it matter? Couldn’t a man be an ardent socialist and trade unionist, and oppose immigration for reasons of economic self-interest? Is a socialist who believes Arab immigrants will drive down his wages a “right winger”? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/27 "2010-12-14T20:39:39Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Let’s look at France’s leading “far right” politician, Monsieur LePen. You probably THINK you know his stance on immigration from Africa and the Middle East. But what are his OTHER policies? Does he favor dismantling France’s generous welfare state? Building up France’s armed forces? Do you know? Does it matter? Couldn’t a man be an ardent socialist and trade unionist, and oppose immigration for reasons of economic self-interest? Is a socialist who believes Arab immigrants will drive down his wages a “right winger”? According to [Jean-Marie Le Pen’s Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen): > [@](#): > > [Le Pen] advocates immigration restrictions, the death penalty, raising incentives for homemakers, and euroscepticism. He strongly opposes same-sex marriage, euthanasia, and abortion. That seems pretty conservative for even the U.S. When you add to that his aforementioned history of xenophobia and anti-Semitism, that would push him past even Pat Buchanan and into the zone occupied by the (fortunately) mostly-forgotten [David Duke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke). ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/28 "2010-12-14T21:23:45Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It’s also worth asking: how do you define “Far right”? I ask seriously, because the media often use simplistic labels for complicated politicians with complicated combinations of views. > > When Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was murdered several years ago, American media outlets invariably called him a “right wing” or “far right” politician. But Fortuyn was an openly gay Marxist! What made him a “right wing” politician in the American media’s eyes? Why, the fact that he was hostile to Muslim immigrants. Aparently, if you don’t embrace the concept of open borders, you’re “far right.” FWIW, Fortuyn certainly wasn’t espousing Marxist politics by the time he started his own party. As far as I can judge, he was a bit more leftist (and probably a lot more “libertarian”) than Wilders, though. > [@](#): > > But wait… Fortuyn wasn’t hostile to immigrants because of their skin color. He was hostile because he believed (with some justice) that the freedom gays like himself enjoy in the Netherlands would be destroyed if Muslims ever became a potent political force there! > > Many people are quick to assume that racism is the ONLY possible explanation for anyone to be hostile to Middle Eastern immigrants. That’s not the case. True to a point. What’s definitely is true is that you don’t have to be a rightists or racist to think that the slowly growing influence of Islam in Europe is on balance probably not a good thing. On the other hand, I see Wilders as an almost purely opportunistic politician running on a platform of fear, which is why I’m not surprised he’s running on an anti-Islam, pro-gay\*, anti-“left wing”\*\*, yet very pro-social security in the broad sense (including something close to universal health care), pro-business, anti-“scroungers” platform. Because while some of those positions can clash, they tick pretty much all of the fear boxes of the Dutch general public. - While there may be many people here who don’t particularly feel comfortable around gay people, there are many more - probably even with some overlap between the groups - who feel _offended_ that gay people might feel personally insecure living in this country. \*\* Wilders’ definition of “left wing” is always vague. But at least it appears to include stuff like lenience in the judicial system, subsidies to the arts & students, international monetary aid, military aid, and the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/29 "2010-12-14T21:36:07Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > FWIW, Fortuyn certainly wasn’t espousing Marxist politics by the time he started his own party. As far as I can judge, he was a bit more leftist (and probably a lot more “libertarian”) than Wilders, though. Out of edit window: What I do want to say in favor of Fortuyn (and I never agreed with the guy much), is that he was clearly a thinker and someone with at least a much more comprehensive - and probably more socially acceptable - view of what the challenges and opportunities of the Netherlands were at the time than Wilders will ever show. In any case, I think what we’ve seen in the Netherlands in the last decade or so - as in the US and the UK - is that the quality of “leftist” rhetoric has been going down while the effectiveness of right-wing fear mongering has risen, especially since 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/30 "2010-12-14T21:56:43Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > According to [Jean-Marie Le Pen’s Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen): > > That seems pretty conservative for even the U.S. When you add to that his aforementioned history of xenophobia and anti-Semitism, that would push him past even Pat Buchanan and into the zone occupied by the (fortunately) mostly-forgotten [David Duke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke). Not really, I follow enough of American politics to say without exagerating that Le Pen would be along the likes of Palin and Gingrich, and the Tea Partiers if he was suddenly transfered to the States. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/31 "2010-12-14T22:20:40Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Not really, I follow enough of American politics to say without exagerating that Le Pen would be along the likes of Palin and Gingrich, and the Tea Partiers if he was suddenly transfered to the States. I have to disagree. An American equivalent of Le Pen, while sharing similar views with Palin and Gingrich on non-racial matters, would also be the most open race-baiter in mainstream American politics since the heyday of [George Wallace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace). (Although he would have to be a bit more subtle than Wallace was.) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/32 "2010-12-15T00:08:42Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Maybe we have a different view of what far-right is. I would think more BNP and I wouldn’t class many (if any) Tories on that level. > > I wouldn’t discount simple, honest to god Xenophobia. Sweden’s right wing party, Moderaterna, are in power and in polls this Week are shown to be the party with the largest support, yet we still got the good old racist Svenska Demokratarna because, frankly there are a lot of racists. Especially down south in the Malmö area. The Swedish Democrats’ candidates were majority immigrant in one election (Iraqi Christians) at that so I highly doubt the label “racist” fits them. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/33 "2010-12-15T00:42:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The Swedish Democrats’ candidates were majority immigrant in one election (Iraqi Christians) at that so I highly doubt the label “racist” fits them. I’m sorry is this an attempt at a woosh? Could it be because I mistakenly wrote Svenska instead of Sverige? Because believe me, Sverige Demokratarna are racist. Really quite racist. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/34 "2010-12-15T01:55:18Z")
The far right in Europe seems to be the conservative base of the GOP. So they are just integrated into the major party here. On the subject of Le Pen and the National Front, the views are no different than the views of a conservative republican in the US. The only real difference is the state giving money to mothers to stay at home. That’d never pass in the US (that and protetionism might get some resistance from conservatives). Everything else (independence from international groups, law and order, anti-abortion, anti-minority rights, anti-immigration) is a common GOP position here. > **[National Rally](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)#Political_platform)** > > The National Rally (French: Rassemblement national, \[ʁasɑ̃bləmɑ̃ nɑsjɔnal\], RN), known as the National Front from 1972 to 2018 (French: Front national, \[fʁɔ̃ nɑsjɔnal\], FN), is a French far-right political party, described as right-wing populist and nationalist. It is the single largest parliamentary opposition party in the National Assembly since 2022. It opposes immigration, advocating significant cuts to legal immigration, protection of French identity, and stricter control of illegal immi > [@](#): > > Political platform > > The National Front posts a comprehensive political platform on its website. Amongst other things it argues for: > > A return to traditional values: to include making access to abortion more difficult or illegal; giving an income to mothers who do not go out to work; promoting local traditional culture. > > Greater independence from the European Union and other international organizations. > > The establishment of tariffs or other protectionist measures against cheap imports. > > Firm sentences for all crimes and reinstatement of the death penalty for “the most heinous crimes”. > > The end of Non-European immigration and the establishment of the jus sanguinis. > > The party opposes immigration, particularly Muslim immigration from North Africa, West Africa and the Middle East. In a standardized pamphlet delivered to all French electors in the 1995 presidential election, Jean-Marie Le Pen proposed the “sending back” of “three million non-Europeans” out of France, by “humane and dignified means”.[9] > > In the campaign for the 2002 French presidential election, the stress was more on issues of law and order. Recurrent National Front themes include tougher law enforcement, firm sentences for all crimes and the reinstatement of the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/35 "2010-12-15T06:39:50Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > But the BNP has never gotten into Parliament. I didn’t say anything about Parliament. The BNP has had a few dozen councillors elected in Britain, a feat completely unparalleled in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/36 "2010-12-15T07:59:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The Swedish Democrats’ candidates were majority immigrant in one election (Iraqi Christians) Cite, please? Unless you provide a credible cite that [Sverigedemokraterna](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverigedemokraterna) “were majority immigrant in one election”, I’ll have to conclude that you don’t have an inkling of a clue of what you’re yapping about. Because, as **amanset** says: Sverigedemokratarna _are_ really quite racist. ETA: There are other possible reasons for your statement, but if I were to suggest those, I’d be breaking the forum rules ---
**Author:** ![Recliner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a88e57/32.png) [@Recliner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recliner)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/37 "2010-12-15T08:09:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If Europe overall is more to the left than the United States in political orientation why is it that the Far Right there is far stronger? For instance Jean Marie Le-Pen won almost one-fifth of the vote in Presidential elections while Pat Buchanan won under one percent. Realistically: it picks up the fringe element. That’s not to downplay the threat of European “Far-Rightism” (“Militant-Nationalism”?), but, yeah. To most of the French, Le Pen is their…well, I was gonna say that God-Hates-Fags guy, but Le Pen is both milder than that, and has far more respect. Hmm… Is it a dick answer to say that I’m simply not too worried? That, for example, I believe that France will tolerate this to a POINT…but will never allow itself to succumb to cheap, racist nationalism? (I’m not making a silly sarcastic point, there – thats straight-up). Basically, when push comes to shove, I feel that Europeans are well aware of the obvious comparison – Hitler – and will back down from truly dick actions. Call it a kind of faith. That said, we (meaning, non-dick citizenry) need to remain AWAKE, and AWARE. As M. Fife would say, when it becomes a problem, you need to nip it in the bud. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/38 "2010-12-15T11:43:59Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I didn’t say anything about Parliament. The BNP has had a few dozen councillors elected in Britain, a feat completely unparalleled in Ireland. There are thousands of local councillors elected every couple of years in elections where turnouts are miniscule. And the BNP have 24 at this moment. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/39 "2010-12-15T14:56:23Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I have to disagree. An American equivalent of Le Pen, while sharing similar views with Palin and Gingrich on non-racial matters, would also be the most open race-baiter in mainstream American politics since the heyday of [George Wallace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Wallace). (Although he would have to be a bit more subtle than Wallace was.) Sorry but no one except Le Pen would start insinuating rumors on one Presidential candidate or even President about his foragna origins. In the US, it was quicker to ask who wouldnt do that in the Republican party. I stand by my words. You either have a faulty assessment of how racism behaves in Europe and France, or how it manifests itself in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083/40 "2010-12-15T15:18:36Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I didn’t say anything about Parliament. The BNP has had a few dozen councillors elected in Britain, a feat completely unparalleled in Ireland. “Where there a bees there is honey, and where there are Jews there is money” The man who said that sat in the Irish Dail until 1987, and his son still sits there now. Let’s not be too hasty to judge. We aren’t as bad as Britain, but really that has more to do with with SF squatting on that particular demographic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-far-right/564083.md?page=3)