European housing - what's with all the doors and corridors?

[clairobscur]

@doreen

It really is just a matter of what you’re accustomed to. I think in one of your earlier posts you referred to cabinets as “kitchen furniture” and it took me a moment to get what you meant. Because from my point of view, “kitchen furniture” would be a table and chairs. Kitchen cabinets are in the same classification in my mind as the kitchen and bathroom sinks and the toilet.

Indeed people over here shop for kitchen cabinets in the same way they shop for bedroom furniture. They pick a specific style, material, color, number and disposition of elements, and so on, that fit their preferences and needs. And they shop for appliances like they shop for TV sets or whatever. They wonder if they’ll need this feature or rather this one, how large their washer should be and if they want it to dry too, they distrust such or such brand, etc…

It most certainly depends on what you’re accustomed to. People could get accustomed too to not choosing their TV set according to their preferences, for instance. But you will admit that usually people like to choose themselves the stuff they have in their house. And that being willing to go with whatever is provided in the case of your kitchen is rather the exception to this norm, hence that it’s more the Americans departing from the norm when it comes to kitchen stuff than Europeans having the strange habit of wanting cabinets, kitchen surfaces and appliances that fit their taste and needs.

[Acsenray]

@clairobscur

But then, this mean that if you’re renting, you can’t put whatever you want in the kitchen? I assume you understand that most people not accustomed to the concept would dislike the idea, in the same way that they would dislike the idea of not being able to have the sofa they want or the TV they want?

In fact, I didn’t even consider the idea of houses you buy coming also with the appliances. It was mentioned, but it escaped me.

I mean that if it’s not the responsibility of the landlord, it’s not a huge issue either, because you don’t need to change your appliances very often.

As a renter you can’t make any significant changes to the apartment. You can’t paint the walls either. You can’t change the carpets. You often can’t choose the color of the curtains. That’s part of the trade off of renting. You have less choice but also you have less financial responsibility for the major items, like the appliances. Less of the stuff is a headache. It’s not my property. Why should I care about such a functional and expensive aspect of the premises?

If I’m a renter I don’t want to ever have to make a large purchase, like kitchen appliances. That’s one of the reasons to rent instead of buying in the first place. Not responsible for anything major. I never have to even own as much as a screwdriver or a paintbrush or garden shears. If it’s attached to anything, all I care is that it works, and it’s not my responsibility to ensure that it does.

Plus, likely one of the reasons I’m renting in the first place is because I can’t afford to make large purchases of any kind.

[Acsenray]

And a stove is a stove is a freaking stove and a fridge is a fridge is a freaking fridge. If I don’t have to pa for it then how much can I care that I don’t get my choice? It’s a functional item. It’s like a toilet or a bath tub or a doorknob or the window sills or the roof tiling. If I cared that much and had the money to make my own choice, I wouldn’t be renting anyway.

I bet you if landlords started supplying TVs, the majority of renters would be extatic about it. That’s one more expensive thing I don’t have to pay for or maintain.

[Bear_Nenno]

@Doctor_Jackson

Insane? No. Different? Yes. Inefficient? Highly likely. I have never rented or bought housing in Germany, but in the US there is virtually zero change of your old cabinets fitting the new kitchen/bathrooms. Same for light fixtures - there is not likely going to be the same number and distribution of fixed lighting locations in the new place. Lamps I can see, taking fixtures, though, make no sense to this Yankee brain.

The rule of thumb in the US is that if it is bolted, nailed, hard wired or otherwise “permanently” affixed, it stays unless explicitly disclosed.

Kitchen cabinets in Germany are often stand alone and modular. They might be secured to the wall, but they are not structurally depedant on the wall. Cabinets and cupboards can be simular to dressers, china cabinets, etc.
So, they don’t always fit your new place exactly, but then you just get another piece (if new place is bigger) or sell a piece (if new place is smaller). Its much like moving into a place with a smaller master bedroom and trying to figure out what to do with the extra bedroom furniture.
Actual “fitted” custom cabinets are more of a luxary item.
And FWIW, I am American. So I understand your hangups. But I can understand the reasoning behinf the German system as well.
I lucked out in that my house came with a fitted kitchen. The landlord was surprised, but happy, when I told him Id like him to leave it. It saved him a lot of work since he plannes to have to remove all of it in order to rent the house.
Its old, 1970s German cabinets and appliances. But Im happpy with it. I had to buy mirrors and medicine cabinets and lights for the bathroom, though, which surprised me.
He also let me use some of the old lights that he removed. So, I only needed lights for half the rooms.

[SanVito]

Fascinating discussion, but just to provide a data point - British convention is that you leave the kitchen where it is, including appliances if they are built in, although usually the buyer would pay extra for them (you take them if they aren’t built in, like a free standing fridge).

This is all detailed in the sale - but if someone took the kitchen cabinets, I think it would cause a legal fight. Cabinets are regarded as ‘fixtures’ and constitute part of the house.

In rented accommodation, the landlord would be expected to provide large kitchen appliances, washers included.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Acsenray

In the U.S., we have a strange exception that the clothes washer and dryer don’t stay with a house, but they do stay with an apartment.

They stay with an apartment if the landlord is the one who put them there, but there are apartments that just come with hookups to be used by the tenant’s own machines that they then take with them.

Edit:

@Acsenray

I’ve never heard of an apartment where you could choose to buy and install your own washer and dryer if there already wasn’t one there.

My mom lived in two different ones, and took her washer and dryer from one to the other, and then to the house she bought.

[Filbert]

@SanVito

In rented accommodation, the landlord would be expected to provide large kitchen appliances, washers included.

Even that’s not universal- when I was looking for a flat about 18 months ago, two places were plumbed for a washing machine but didn’t come with one (same for the flat I was in before) and one didn’t have an oven either (). They did all have a fridge, but that’s been the only constant in places I’ve looked at.

I dunno if it varies by area or simply by dodginess of landlord.

[Acsenray]

I forgot to measure the height of my bed, but generally speaking, being a person of approx 5 ft 8 in height (173 cm), I expect to be able to sit on the edge of a bed and my feet not touch the floor, or if they do, my knees should still be lower than my hips. If my feet touch the floor while sitting upright and my knees are higher than my hips, then the bed is too low.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Acsenray

In America you can always buy a new refrigerator/freezer, dish-washing machine, stove/range/oven, microwave, overhead light fixtures, and kitchen cabinets if you want to. It’s wonderful that that the standard assumption is that you won’t have to. And that’s in a house.

Is it actually standard for the previous owners to leave the refrigerator? Obviously that’s often the more convenient option for them (since they might not need it where they’re going), but they’re typically freestanding so I don’t think it would be safe to actually assume that you’ll get a free fridge with the house.

[Aspidistra]

@clairobscur

Not true here. Leases are for three years over here (although automatically renewable), by law (you can offer a longer lease, in theory, but not a shorter one).

I just wanted to take this up for a second because nobody else has - in (IME) the UK, Australia, and I suspect other parts of the Anglosphere as well, three years also falls into the “pretty damn long” category. The standard lease here is one year (renewable, mind you - most people don’t need to move every year, but you can never guarantee whether you might) and six-month leases are not unheard of.

You can see how, the more often you think you might need to move, the less you want to be carting a lot of stuff around with you

[chappachula]

@clairobscur

Not true here. Leases are for three years over here (although automatically renewable), by law (you can offer a longer lease, in theory, but not a shorter one).

How is this possible?
The main reason for renting an apartment, instead of buying, is that you want the flexibility to move, and not stay for 3 years.
Young people, especially university students, often move to a new place every year, or less.
How does this work in your country, if leases are 3 years long?

[Nava]

@Acsenray

My impression is that the climate in much of Europe is much less variable than in most of the United States, so they don’t spend as much on heating and cooling as we do. Maybe I’m wrong about that.

Okay, grant that is the reason. Why does the door need a lock?

I’ve only seen locks in front doors; inner rooms may have latches but this will be for privacy (bedrooms, bathrooms). That’s after living in half a dozen European countries.

Why not have, say, the kitchen and the dining room open directly into the living room?

Because then the whole freaking house smells of fried eggs when you fry eggs No, seriously, it’s the one thing people exclaim: “doesn’t the whole house smell of fried eggs?” Fried eggs are Spain’s epitome of popular-and-easy… and, apparently, smelly.

While “American kitchens” (what they’re called in most of Europe when they’re not a separate room) are becoming more common, they’re generally seen as a space-saving feature forced by need, not as an advantage. We don’t like open-plan.

Eating in a separate room used to be something you could only do if you had enough rooms for it, which in turn means enough room for so many rooms; it was an aspirational thing. My grandparents would no more have eaten a sit-down meal in the kitchen than used their own underwear for napkins. Nowadays there is no need to prove that you can afford rooms, so people whose kitchens are large enough for it (something which doesn’t only change by country but at smaller levels) are now likely to eat most meals in the kitchen, moving to a larger table and room only when there’s enough guests that the kitchen simply isn’t big enough.

[Nava]

@clairobscur

Not true here. Leases are for three years over here (although automatically renewable), by law (you can offer a longer lease, in theory, but not a shorter one).

There are many areas of France where you can get six-months leases. Whether that’s by using some loophole or theoretically illegal, I don’t know.

Re. “opening directly into the living room”:

if what you mean is having no hallway, that may require space which is not available. My house’s floor plan wouldn’t accept a room opening directly into two others unless it was the back bedroom: having the kitchen right at the entrance is more practical, because it’s where you’re usually going if you walk in carrying heavy shopping. The whole process of how to design houses would have to be changed. You’re probably thinking in terms of individual houses surrounded by space; a lot of Europe is either apartment buildings next to other apartment buildings, or houses next to other houses. Space isn’t only limited in amount but in shape.

[BleizDu]

@Nava

There are many areas of France where you can get six-months leases. Whether that’s by using some loophole or theoretically illegal, I don’t know.

At this link there’s a rundown of the different kind of housing contracts (not for hollidays) in France:
https://www.pap.fr/bailleur/location-vide-meuble/louer-vide-ou-meuble-quelles-differences/a19912
3 years for empty housing, 1 year for furnished housing, 9 months for student housings and between 1 and 10 months for some other cases (professional training, higher education, apprenticeship contract, traineeship, civic service, job transfer, temp mission).
While we’re at it, except when you rent something empty, here’s the legal list of set equipments the house/flat must have: https://www.pap.fr/bailleur/location-vide-meuble/quels-meubles-pour-une-location-meublee/a1409/les-meubles-indispensables-dans-une-location-meublee
I don’t know how is it today, but when I was a student, 15 years ago, in my university I don’t remember many people moving each year, since it takes a few years to get a diploma. So if you have found some housing I don’t see why you would want to move, unless it’s a real crappy one.

The last two times we’ve rented a house, we stayed three years in each, and we saw that as a very short time to stay somewhere. We’ve been nearly 5 years where we are and it still feels like a short time.

–
Anyway, I love this thread, very fascinating to me!

About the “a fridge is a fridge”, a “stove is a stove” thing:

An older fridge usually costs more in electricity than a new one, more energy-efficient.
If we were to move into an already furnished housing, I would fear to find some crappy old fridge. Or some fridge too small or too big for our needs.

We use a gaz/cooking stove, and got rid of our electrical/cooking stove years ago (because of the cost of electricity). I wouldn’t want to go back to an electrical one for ex, or to some kind of mini-stove or way too big one.

But, I’m used to the way things are around here, so I’m having trouble imagining how I could live differently since we’re starting from another place. We already have a personal fridge, stove, washing machine etc.

[Nava]

I think my colleagues and I would count as “temp mission”. We’re usually on location for 3-12 months: that means we want to have everything provided, whereas when my family rented housing in Spain all that was provided was the floor, ceiling, walls and bathroom fixtures. Everything that wasn’t a fixed surface or stuck to the bathroom floor, we provided.

And in general, every location will have different conditions depending on what’s provided: empty places will be cheaper than a furnished one in the same building. You have to be careful because the concepts of “empty” and “furnished” change by location, but then so does the concept of which kitchen appliances are essential, which types of fridges are best…

[Doctor_Jackson]

@clairobscur

A last thing occurs to me. Even though I personally don’t really care (at least not until I live in a place from which I don’t intend to move anymore) people typically want to choose themselves their kitchen furniture (someone can be fine with plain white cabinets, but someone else might want them colorful, and someone else made in some fancy wood, someone wants a modern style, and someone else an old style, etc…) and appliances (they prefer brand X rather than brand Y for their oven, they want their washing machine to have this or that feature, they want a large fridge with a freezer, or a small one that will fit under the hot plates to gain space, etc…)…
As someone pointed out, it also might be related to French people moving less often than American people, and so being more desirous to personalize a place where they’ll stay for a long time. Once again, a guess, I don’t know.

It’s definitely a cultural thing. In the US, renters (as a general rule) tend to care less than buyers about specific cabinetry and large appliances and those that do shop around for a rental more suited to their tastes. Sounds like in France one is more likely to accept kitchen cabinets that don’t fit the room exactly and in the US one is more likely to accept cabinets that don’t fit their tastes exactly.

@Bear_Nenno

Kitchen cabinets in Germany are often stand alone and modular. They might be secured to the wall, but they are not structurally depedant on the wall. Cabinets and cupboards can be simular to dressers, china cabinets, etc.{snip}
Actual “fitted” custom cabinets are more of a luxary item.

This is the main difference. In the US kitchen cabinets are almost always fitted to the room and affixed to the walls (and each other) with a solid counter top across the lowers, leaving specific spaces for the large appliances. This makes virtually all cabinet jobs “custom”, even if the cabinets themselves are pre-fabricated.

@Lord_Feldon

Is it actually standard for the previous owners to leave the refrigerator?

In US rentals, yes, it is common for large appliances to stay. In purchases it is a negotiation point. Stoves and ovens commonly stay; refrigerators, freezers and washer/dryers are less commonly included in the sale price but can be negotiated into the deal.

[SanVito]

@Doctor_Jackson

This is the main difference. In the US kitchen cabinets are almost always fitted to the room and affixed to the walls (and each other) with a solid counter top across the lowers, leaving specific spaces for the large appliances. This makes virtually all cabinet jobs “custom”, even if the cabinets themselves are pre-fabricated.

To be honest, I’m struggling to picture kitchens in mainland Europe where this isn’t also the case - it certainly was when I bought a kitchen for a holiday home in Italy. Let’s face it, an Ikea kitchen is an Ikea kitchen. Maybe Germans are just more willing to get their screwdrivers out.

[BwanaBob]

We rented a house for a year while we looked for a permanent home in our new area. The rental house did not have a washing machine which ticked us off but we really liked the location. So we had to provide one. When we moved out we offered to sell it to the landlord so that it would make the house more attractive to the next renters but they had planned a big refurbishing prior to putting the house up for sale and weren’t interested.
We bought our new house and not only did it come with major appliances but an extra washing machine (not hooked up) tucked into a corner of the garage. The other washing machine that came with the house was too small so we installed the one from the rental and discarded both washers (the movers were kind enough to drag the machines to the curb for pickup.

We rented out our older house and had issues with the tenants who did not understand the concept of “fixtures”. As stated in other posts, if it’s bolted to the wall or ceiling it is landlord property. As a convenience we had a household battery caddy bolted to the wall on the lower level near the spare bathroom. Our verminous tenants though it fair game and took it down and “stole” it when they moved out. It wasn’t that valuable so I let it go, but if they had taken any ceiling fans I would have hunted them down.

To the Europeans reading; if you add a fixture to an apartment you are renting you have gifted that item to the landlord and they need not compensate you. I knew of a family that disliked their kitchen cabinets and had the old ones torn down and discarded and had new ones installed. The landlord happened to visit for an unrelated reason and saw the new cabinets and just grinned, and thanked the tenants for the free “improvement”. he could have sued them if they tried to take them when they left. Now if they had kept the old ones and restored them upon leaving they would have been in the clear.

[SanVito]

@Filbert

Even that’s not universal- when I was looking for a flat about 18 months ago, two places were plumbed for a washing machine but didn’t come with one (same for the flat I was in before) and one didn’t have an oven either (). They did all have a fridge, but that’s been the only constant in places I’ve looked at.

I dunno if it varies by area or simply by dodginess of landlord.

Probably the latter! I don’t think there’s any rules around it, just what landlords are willing to provide for the rent. I suppose market forces will dictate the generosity of the landlord.

[SanVito]

@BwanaBob

To the Europeans reading; if you add a fixture to an apartment you are renting you have gifted that item to the landlord and they need not compensate you. I knew of a family that disliked their kitchen cabinets and had the old ones torn down and discarded and had new ones installed. The landlord happened to visit for an unrelated reason and saw the new cabinets and just grinned, and thanked the tenants for the free “improvement”. he could have sued them if they tried to take them when they left. Now if they had kept the old ones and restored them upon leaving they would have been in the clear.

In the UK, rental agreements normally stipulate that you can’t make any changes to the place at all, quite often including adding picture hooks, and certainly not ripping out kitchens. In those circumstances, the landlord can either demand that you reinstate the original fixtures and decorations, or demand recompense for the changes.