# European Martial Arts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 11, 2002, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934 "2002-09-11T06:01:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/21 "2002-09-12T00:23:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrAndrewV \* > \*\* > > Well the world\*\*'s\*\* first **hand to hand** martial art was Pankration. > > \*\* Bolding mine. Martial arts being the art of War. Swordfighting, spearfighting, bowfighting etc. [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/22 "2002-09-12T00:30:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ethilrist \* > \*\*Capoeira. “cap-oy-err-ah.” Practitioners are called capoeiristas. \*\* Which is a Brazilian martial art orginated by the slaves brought by the Portugeese. Technically, you could say it came to be because of Europeans (slaves could not learn to fight so they had to disguise MA as dancing) , but technically the MA orginated in Brazil. Interesting on the Savate. French kick boxing, who would have thunk it. I messed up the coding on my last post. **Hand to Hand** should be bolded. Not all of it. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/23 "2002-09-12T06:30:59Z")
I’m not sure how legit the claim of Pankration being the first hand to hand martial art is. There are many valid claims to it, but it’s almost impossible to nail down. Fact- Korean martial arts have enough history to them that the names of many of the weapons refer to them being made from stone. The problem with asking something like this is that most arts that have been around a long time make the claim of being “first”. India, China, Greece, Malaysia, Japan… the list gets longer everytime someone finds a good reference to something that seems martial artsy. Personally, I don’t think there is a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![johncole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@johncole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johncole)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/24 "2002-09-12T17:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scm1001 \* > \*\*icky thump! > > (sorry no cites found but UK dopers will remember this ancient martial art) \*\* Try searching for “Ecky Thump” [Wigan Athletic Unofficial Website](http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/140666) …and who can forget the grace and brutality of Bill Tidy’s _“Cloggies: an everyday story of clog-dancing folk”_. …not to mention morris-dancing [pratchett]’…one,two…spin…ready…one,two…back…back…one,two…turn…_ **KILL** _… and back,one,two…’ [/pratchett] perhaps we shouldn’t make so much fun of English country-dancing. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/25 "2002-09-12T23:22:07Z")
Llap Goch! See [http://www.ppsa.com/gif/llap01.gif](http://www.ppsa.com/gif/llap01.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Caldrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Sir\_Caldrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Caldrik)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2002, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/26 "2002-10-19T07:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*What’re the major differences between Asian and European martial arts? \*\* Hmm… It seems to me that most European fighting is top centered, while most Asian fighting is bottom centered. This doesn’t mean they use one or the other more (although Europeans tend to neglect the legs in combat), but that the focus in Western fighting is on the chest, shoulders, and arms, while Eastern arts work on strengthening the foundation, the legs and hips. At least, this is what I gathered from Adam Hsu’s book, **The Sword Polisher’s Record**. My own humble analysis tells me that European fighting arts had a tendency to see the body as separate parts where Asians saw the body as a whole. They are also more one-on-one oriented where Asian arts involved a great deal of multi-attacker techniques. I’m guessing this might have something to do with the prevalent Asian philosophy of interconnectedness (i.e. Yin Yang). People in the west, usually saw the universe as separate and distinct elements, not blended and seamless. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934/27 "2002-10-19T18:07:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrAndrewV \* > \*\*Here follows a brief timeline of world martial arts. > > Well the world first martial art was Pankration. > > A holistic martial art involving punching, kicking, grappling and wrestling. An olympic sport for a thousand years. > Taught to Alexander the Great’s troops to make them extra lethal. > > Over time it spreads throughout Russia. Eventually there is such a huge diversity of styles and techiniques that this martial art is just refered to as ‘SAMBO’. An acronym that stands for ‘Self Defense Without Weapons’. It still flourishes today and it is quite nasty 🙂 > \*\* Er, no. SAMBO was invented in the 1930s by Anatoli Harlampigev, who was (possibly) a student of Vassily Oschepkov, who was one of the first Russians to be ranked in Kodokan judo. SAMBO is a Russian acronym for “self-defence without weapons”. It is a combination of Japanese judo (founded in 1882 by Jigoro Kano), and several indigenous Russian styles of wrestling, including _gulesh_ from Azerbhajian, _koch_ from Armenia, and _kuriash_, a Tartar style. There is no known connection between SAMBO and the Pankration. (Source for all this is Russian Judo, by Alexander Iatskevich, in the Ippon Masterclass series. ) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrAndrewV \* > \*\* > Cultural osmosis again: karate is developed from the okinawan styles. Ju-jitsu (and thus hapkido and aikido) is developed by the samurai by combining the positional strength of and foot movements of kendo with the joint manipulation techniques of the okinawan martial arts. Judo is derived from ju-jitsu by focusing on very particular parts of the style: throws and positional control. > \*\* Karate did not reach Japan until the arrival of Gichin Funakoshi in 1917. Jujutsu far predates this. So the samurai who developed jujutsu were not influenced by a style they had never seen. Judo is based on several older styles of jujutsu, including Kito-ryu, Tenjin Shin’yo-ryu, and Seigo-ryi and Sekiguchi-ryu. You are correct that it focussed primarily on throwing techniques until the defeat of the Kodokan team by a team from the Fusen style of jujutsu in 1900 which forced them to add ne-waza, or groundwork, to their style. This is remarkably similar to the effect the Gracie family has had on the martial arts with their record of success in the Ultimate Fighting Championships, and other mixed martial arts tournaments. (Source: Modern Bujutsu and Budo, by Donn Draeger. ) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MrAndrewV \* > \*\* > The only thing I am unsure of is how the Phillapino martial styles (Kali, Escrima etc) were developed. I assume that they are a derivation of Kung-Fu as well but I dont want to piss anybody off if I am wrong. > \*\* Kali is the older form of the style now known as _arnis de mano_, or _escrima_. It is based on older native methods, influenced by Chinese methods brought over during the ninth century, during the T’ang Dynasty. The Spanish colonization of the area, and the various revolts against this, added Spanish fencing to the mix. _Escrima_ focusses mostly on bladed weapons, although there is an empty-handed component as well. (Source: Asian Fighting Arts, by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith, 1969). Good luck in your tournament. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-martial-arts/127934.md?page=1)