# European pagan rituals in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698 "2013-06-23T11:11:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/21 "2013-06-23T20:44:24Z")
> [@phaemon](#): > > Nope, I’m pretty sure that Halloween doesn’t really fall on the same day as an ancient Celtic festival, mainly because I don’t think the ancient Celts used the Gregorian calendar. Of course it’s not necessary that it fall on the same day in for there to be an association. Christmas doesn’t coincide exactly with the Saturnalia, but there’s little doubt that it’s celebrated at that general time of year (and nowhere near the probable date of birth of Christ, which was most likely in the spring) in order to be close to the Winter Solstice. > [@](#): > > Yeah, those wacky Pagans who became Christians, forcing themselves to keep celebrating their own festivals. The bastards. Not sure exactly what you’re point is here. You seem to be acknowledging that Christian festivals actually have pagan roots. > [@](#): > > What exactly _is_ Pagan anyway? So far we seem to have included Roman religion, Roman custom, Norse Gods, Norse custom, Celtic custom, and any symbol ever used by anyone anywhere ever. 😃 I would consider it to be non-Christian or pre-Christian traditions. Surely this isn’t that difficult to understand. ---
**Author:** ![phaemon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@phaemon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phaemon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/22 "2013-06-23T20:54:24Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course it’s not necessary that it fall on the same day in for there to be an association. Christmas doesn’t coincide exactly with the Saturnalia, but there’s little doubt that it’s celebrated at that general time of year (and nowhere near the probable date of birth of Christ, which was most likely in the spring) in order to be close to the Winter Solstice. It seems to me that if you go looking to find links between festivals and symbols you can no doubt find them. You might as well be quoting the Da Vinci Code though… > [@](#): > > Not sure exactly what you’re point is here. You seem to be acknowledging that Christian festivals actually have pagan roots. Do I? Is it so difficult to understand that if I have Christmas decorations up on my sister’s birthday, it doesn’t mean I’m not _really_ celebrating her birthday? Or that her birthday has “Christmas roots”? > [@](#): > > I would consider it to be non-Christian or pre-Christian traditions. Surely this isn’t that difficult to understand. Oh, OK. It is for me. The idea that Celtic customs get grouped in with Roman customs because they’re both “not Christian” seems really stupid to me. Ach sinn mar a tha e! Are Internet memes Pagan too? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/23 "2013-06-23T21:03:26Z")
> [@phaemon](#): > > It seems to me that if you go looking to find links between festivals and symbols you can no doubt find them. You might as well be quoting the Da Vinci Code though… > > Do I? Is it so difficult to understand that if I have Christmas decorations up on my sister’s birthday, it doesn’t mean I’m not _really_ celebrating her birthday? Or that her birthday has “Christmas roots”? > > Oh, OK. It is for me. The idea that Celtic customs get grouped in with Roman customs because they’re both “not Christian” seems really stupid to me. Ach sinn mar a tha e! Are Internet memes Pagan too? If you want to dispute some specific linkages, then do so. But simply scoffing at the notion itself is no more than a statement of your own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![phaemon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@phaemon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phaemon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/24 "2013-06-23T21:20:18Z")
No. If you wish to claim specific linkages, then do so. I’m not going to run about trying to demonstrate that more than one group of people can learn to draw a cross at some point in their history. Or that if I use it as a plus sign, I’m somehow secretly worshipping the ancient alien gods. Your evaluation of my ignorance isn’t really relevant to…well, anything. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/25 "2013-06-23T22:07:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > (Of course, not being a Christian or a resident of a Christian country, I sometimes have difficulty differentiating Christianity from other forms of paganism). I thought Christianity was just Judaism with some pagan window dressing to appeal to the goyim. 😕 > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > My favorite pagan tradition in modern US life is Thanksgiving. > It’s an amazingly complicated ritual animal sacrifice with symbolic side dish sacrifices. So I have to eat that gaacky green beans with mushroom soup and canned onions to appease the green bean, mushroom, and onion gods? Paganism is hard. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/26 "2013-06-23T22:25:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > … Funny thing is as a kid even in a Christian family I had no idea at all it was a religious occasion or had anything to do with Christianity. It was all about eggs, bunnies, candy, and baskets full of plastic grass. Kids eat chocolate eggs because the color of the chocolate and the color of the wood on the cross… Well, you tell me. It’s got nothing to do with it, has it? People are going, “Remember kids, Jesus died for your sins.” “Yeah, I know, it’s great.” “No, it’s bad.” “It’s bad. It’s terrible. Whatever you want. Just keep giving me these eggs.” And the bunny rabbits, where do they come into the Crucifixion? There were no rabbits going, “You putting crosses in our warrens? We live below this hill, all right?” Bunny rabbits are for shagging, eggs are for fertility. It’s the spring festival. Eddie Izzard _Dress To Kill_ > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s the eggs too; bunnies and eggs are both fertility symbols, for obvious reasons. … Great minds think alike? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/27 "2013-06-23T22:32:10Z")
> [@phaemon](#): > > Nope, I’m pretty sure that Halloween doesn’t really fall on the same day as an ancient Celtic festival, mainly because I don’t think the ancient Celts used the Gregorian calendar. Neither did the Christians of the area, at the time. Therefor, Halloween is a modern secular holiday, created in the 18th century, not connected to religion at all, nor created in the 16th century. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/28 "2013-06-24T00:28:10Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > So I have to eat that gaacky green beans with mushroom soup and canned onions to appease the green bean, mushroom, and onion gods? Paganism is hard. Do you ever eat that gaaky green bean stuff, other than on a certain day, and after saying a specific ritual prayer? The druids were vegetarians, they practiced vegetable sacrifice. We borrowed that too. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/29 "2013-06-24T01:52:05Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Not for the witches. 😃 > > My favorite pagan tradition in modern US life is Thanksgiving. > It’s an amazingly complicated ritual animal sacrifice with symbolic side dish sacrifices. > **[Get Fuzzy by Darby Conley for April 04, 2005 | GoComics.com](https://www.gocomics.com/getfuzzy/2005/04/04)** > > "We're going to my mom's for a late easter dinner. But she's not cooking a turkey, so-" "We're eating it live?!" "What, no rabbit?" "Rabbit? For Easter? What are you, crazy?" "Christmas turkey, Thanksgiving turkey, Valentine's Day marmot, Easter... ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/30 "2013-06-24T02:37:31Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Do you ever eat that gaaky green bean stuff, other than on a certain day, and after saying a specific ritual prayer? No. It’s gaaky. > [@](#): > > The druids were vegetarians, they practiced vegetable sacrifice. We borrowed that too. Well, those vegetables were already sacrificed before they got canned. I don’t know what prayers were said and I haven’t checked the labels on the cans, but I’m pretty sure they are likely to be kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/31 "2013-06-24T15:14:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **dropzone** : Well, those vegetables were already sacrificed before they got canned. Knock on wood. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/32 "2013-06-24T20:26:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The tradition is properly uninterrupted since the Iron Age. Christianity put on a veneer of Christianity on top, so its actually called Saint Johannes Day (since he was also supposed to have been born on this day). But beyond the name there is not much Christianity in it. > > They’re not in general honoring the old gods, more a worship of summer, warmth, light, power of nature and such. So there are degrees of involvement; it doesn’t quite amount to worship, however it’s not mere empty rituals either. The same with Winter Solstice, Christmas, in Scandinavia. It has a very pagan feel to it; the darkness and the cold, the light feasts leading up to it, etc. I have never met anyone who treated midsummer as a time of worship rather than just an excuse to party and make a big fire. To all my friends and relatives in Norway it’s very much empty rituals. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/33 "2013-06-24T21:12:01Z")
Seems as if the witch effigy on top of the bonfire is a relatively recent addition, probably dating from the latter half of the 19th century. Speaking of, though: Did ye olde pre-Christian Scandinavians burn (or otherwise kill) accused witches? (I know that the pre-Christian Romans did, so it’s clearly not a strictly Christian thing.) ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/34 "2013-06-24T22:31:55Z")
Well it’s not in the least pagan, but over in the UK, ever November 5th, we have a big bonfire, loads of ridiculously expensive fireworks and burn poor old Guy Fawkes in effigy. Guido Fawkes had the quite laudable idea of blowing all the politicians in the houses of parliament to kingdom come - he almost succeeded too. The fact that he was a Catholic in a (officially) Protestant country meant that he was vilified as a Papist pawn and was sentenced to the traditional traitors’ death - to be ‘hanged, drawn and quartered’. In the event, he jumped from the gallows, breaking his own neck and thereby avoiding the horror of being cut down while still alive, having his testicles cut off and his stomach opened and his guts spilled before his eyes. His lifeless body was hacked into quarters and his remains sent to “the four corners of the kingdom” as a warning to others. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/35 "2013-06-25T00:45:27Z")
> [@naita](#): > > an excuse to party and make a big fire…it’s very much empty rituals. What’s empty about that? It sounds like fun, especially since you guys sent all the boring Norwegians over here. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/36 "2013-06-25T05:44:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > What’s empty about that? It sounds like fun, especially since you guys sent all the boring Norwegians over here. By Rune’s ‘not empty, bordering on worship’-definition, I’d call it empty, but if you want to define fun as ‘not empty’ a weekend binge is a pagan tradition. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/37 "2013-06-25T07:28:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The tradition is properly uninterrupted since the Iron Age. Christianity put on a veneer of Christianity on top, so its actually called Saint Johannes Day (since he was also supposed to have been born on this day). But beyond the name there is not much Christianity in it. > . The tradition of setting up bonfires on Saint John’s day is widespread all over Europe, with variations about the kind of fire, what is done around it, etc… Where I was brought up, it was a whole (small) tree that was cut down and put on fire, rather than any random bonfire, and young people would jump over the fire as soon as it appeared possible. I remember that my grandmother would also pick up a bit of the resulting charcoal and draw a cross on the doorstep with it. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/38 "2013-06-25T12:50:05Z")
Of course. Halloween is based on Samhain. May Day is based on Beltane. There might not be a maypole in everyone’s yard but some people still do it. People burn Yule Logs at Christmastime. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/39 "2013-06-25T12:58:10Z")
How about the animals who predict things if properly approached, such as Groundhog Day? Seems as pagan as it gets. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698/40 "2013-06-25T13:27:27Z")
Do power metal records count? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-pagan-rituals-in-america/661698.md?page=3)