# European playing cards (GuanoLad, Coldfire, anyone) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 3, 1999, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803 "1999-12-03T19:33:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Flypsyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Flypsyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flypsyde)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/1 "1999-12-03T19:33:00Z")
Can you guys tell me where I can get a set of playing cards with the European suits? I did a quick search on Alta-Vista, but any page that had a picture of the decks used only the American suits. I’m trying to get a deck together for a game that uses both our suits (hearts, clubs, diamonds and spades) and the European suits (swords, staves, coins and cups). Thanks, Flyp P.S. Guano, it’s Cripple Mr. Onion time! * * * “Bodie, I noticed you stopped stuttering.” “I’ve been giving myself shock treatments.” “Up the voltage.” -_Real Genius_ ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/2 "1999-12-03T19:44:00Z")
I’m not sure what you mean by “European” suits. In what country would those be used? For example, there is a swiss card game called “jass”. The “jass” deck has cards from ace to 6. The french-speaking swiss use the regular deck, the german-speaking swiss sometimes use an older deck that has acorns, flags, and I forget the other two. I think I have one at home so I can check. The suits you are mentioning sound like the suits in a tarot deck. Most bookstores, and any New Age store, will have one or several tarot decks for sale. Remove all the “special cards” (aka major arcana), and you’ve got a deck with the suits you mentioned. The tarot deck also has two “knave” cards, I forgot their names. i.e. they have ace, king, queen, jack 1 and jack 2. So you remove one of the jacks, and voila, there’s a 52-card deck. * * * La franchise ne consiste pas à dire tout ce que l’on pense, mais à penser tout ce que l’on dit. H. de Livry ---
**Author:** ![neuro-trash\_grrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3ab097/32.png) [@neuro-trash\_grrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neuro-trash_grrrl)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/3 "1999-12-03T19:47:00Z")
If I remember correctly, the other jack is called the “cavalier”. I could very well be wrong, though. * * * “That’s entertainment!” —Vlad the Impaler ---
**Author:** ![Flypsyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Flypsyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flypsyde)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/4 "1999-12-03T19:54:00Z")
Apologies if the Ugly American in me raised his head. I was under the impression that in some countries across the Atlantic, the other four suits are used; the first example that comes to mind is France, but I was guessing that it would be easier to find them anywhere in Europe than here (hoping that was the case, anyway). I realize they’re not standard fare in Europe, either, but the few sources I’ve read about them mention that they are still actually printed by some Continental companies. * * * “Bodie, I noticed you stopped stuttering.” “I’ve been giving myself shock treatments.” “Up the voltage.” -_Real Genius_ ---
**Author:** ![MadPoet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8c91f0/32.png) [@MadPoet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadPoet)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/5 "1999-12-03T21:43:00Z")
Uh… the suits in a Tarot deck are Cups, Coins, Staves, and Swords… * * * [http://www.madpoet.com](http://www.madpoet.com) The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 1999, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/6 "1999-12-03T23:14:00Z")
Flypsyde, Here in Britain we have clubs, diamonds, hearts and spades. Our court cards are K (King), Q (Queen) and J (Jack), in that order. I think the French have different names (Roi?), and I’m sure the Dutch do as well, though the suits are identical. But, as others said, the stuff you name is Tarot. * * * In the bathtub of history, the truth is harder to hold than the soap… (Pratchett) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/7 "1999-12-04T01:23:00Z")
There **is** a kind of Continental deck that occupies the middle ground - it is put together like a standard pack (maybe plus the extra jacks) with the old suits that you mention. In German it is called a Tarock pack (I think), there being a game called Tarock (the link with tarot is obvious). So you are not hallucinating such a pack - but I agree with the advice: simply get a traditional tarot pack, and shed the major arcana. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/8 "1999-12-04T01:36:00Z")
Well, I’ve learned something today, thanks to **Durnovarianus**. I had seen some people from Austria play Tarock, but they used the regular suits (though the deck is very different from the bridge 52-card deck.) I looked up Tarock, and found this site [http://home6.swipnet.se/~w-64324/tarock1.htm](http://home6.swipnet.se/~w-64324/tarock1.htm) describing the Game of Tarock. They mention there that originally it was played with a deck very similar to the Tarot deck, and the french name for Tarock was Tarot. * * * La franchise ne consiste pas à dire tout ce que l’on pense, mais à penser tout ce que l’on dit. H. de Livry ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/9 "1999-12-04T01:37:00Z")
Cripple Mr Onion! Hurrah! That’ll be interesting to play. From what I can tell, it has a Calvin & Hobbes set of rules. i.e. made up as they go along. 🙂 If there are any rules to the game, I know where to look. * * * -PIGEONMAN- Hero For A New Millennium! [The Legend Of PigeonMan](http://www.hotkey.net.au/~guanolad/pigeonman/) - updates every Wed & Sat. If I can be bothered. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/10 "1999-12-04T12:22:00Z")
Arnold W: that link is an interesting one. The original Italian trionfi are also fascinating, if you can get hold of a good book on them. ---
**Author:** ![Poto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ab992/32.png) [@Poto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poto)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/11 "1999-12-04T13:28:00Z")
I’ve seen Arnold’s deck from above ina Chech version. They are still made. But you need to go there and get them, these are strictly old fashioned games, not for the internet crowd.The guy that had them retired from work, so I couldn’t check on this easily. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/12 "1999-12-04T14:47:00Z")
Yeah, we use the same suits as you do: Aas for Ace Koning/Heer (“King”/“Lord”) for Kings Koningin/Dame (“Queen”/“Dame”) for Queen Boer (“Farmer”) for Jack ## For the rest normal Clubs, Spades, Hearts and whateveryoucallthesquarethingiesagain. Coldfire * * * “You know how complex women are” - Neil Peart, Rush (1993) ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/13 "1999-12-04T17:13:00Z")
My only un-American experience is with New Zealand playing cards and they were identical (although I do have really neat souvenir set of Maori playing cards with tattooed Maori warriors/princesses on the face cards). The only verbal difference was that they called the _jack_ the _knave_ sometimes. ## What about the terms _deuce_ and _trey_? Are those Americanisms or are they more widespread? Or are they only used in poker and not in, say, bridge? “If ignorance were corn flakes, you’d be General Mills.” Cecil Adams _The Straight Dope_ ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/14 "1999-12-04T17:44:00Z")
What you’re looking for are SPANISH playing cards. (I’ve been looking for a while, for the same reasons you have.) I’m now considering having some printed commercially, so I could package some “Cripple Mr. Onion” decks . . . and the backs would all match. Interested? Drop me email . . . and anybody else you think might be interested, let me/them know, please. your humble TubaDiva ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 1999, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/15 "1999-12-04T19:55:00Z")
Pluto, It’s two and three in England. Mind you, we’ve seen American movies - was it Steve McQueen in ‘The Cincinatti Kid’? Whatever, two pairs should NOT check on the 4th card against a possible straight flush! * * * In the bathtub of history, the truth is harder to hold than the soap… (Pratchett) ---
**Author:** ![Flypsyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Flypsyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flypsyde)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 1999, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/16 "1999-12-06T14:27:00Z")
Hot diggety! For a while, I thought I was just damn insane, or the Pratchett fans were having a game at my expense. Thanks for the validation, Tuba. I’ll be mailing you soon. * * * “Bodie, I noticed you stopped stuttering.” “I’ve been giving myself shock treatments.” “Up the voltage.” -_Real Genius_ ---
**Author:** ![Flypsyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Flypsyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flypsyde)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 1999, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/17 "1999-12-06T14:27:00Z")
Hot diggety! For a while, I thought I was just damn insane, or the Pratchett fans were having a game at my expense. Thanks for the validation, Tuba. I’ll be mailing you soon. * * * “Bodie, I noticed you stopped stuttering.” “I’ve been giving myself shock treatments.” “Up the voltage.” -_Real Genius_ ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 1999, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/18 "1999-12-06T22:33:00Z")
Well, I did some more digging over the week-end and today after reading **Tubadiva** ’s e-mail, and here’s what I found out. The suits for that swiss card game (german swiss version) were shields, acorns, flowers, bells. (I mistakenly said flags instead of shields in a previous e-mail.) At this site, “[What kinds of playing-cards are there?](http://is1.cs.man.ac.uk/playing-cards/faq.html#sub3.4)”, you can find information about suits in different countries. Of course, **Tubadiva** was right, the suits in the OP are used also in spanish playing cards. This site sells many different kind of playing cards: [R. Somerville of Edinburgh (Playing Cards)](http://www.playing-cards.demon.co.uk/) Click on _standard regional pattern packs_ to see a list of spanish cards. I assume they take credit-card orders, because when I clicked on _Most recently added list_ there was a form you could fill out for online ordering. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 1999, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/19 "1999-12-06T22:36:00Z")
P.S. What’s “Cripple Mr. Onion” ? ---
**Author:** ![Flypsyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@Flypsyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flypsyde)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 1999, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803/20 "1999-12-07T14:11:00Z")
Arnold, Cripple Mr. Onion is a game mentioned often in Terry Pratchett’s _Discworld_ books. Honestly, I don’t think he’s come up with the rules, but he has a rabid fan base who’ve come up with rules themselves. I’ve played it a couple of times with a friend who’ll play anything, but I had to use two different backed decks to play it. Tuba’s idea is a great one. * * * “Bodie, I noticed you stopped stuttering.” “I’ve been giving myself shock treatments.” “Up the voltage.” -_Real Genius_ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-playing-cards-guanolad-coldfire-anyone/11803.md?page=2)