# European public transport freeloader economics **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 8, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251 "2004-10-08T19:29:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SavageNarce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@SavageNarce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SavageNarce)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/21 "2004-10-09T03:12:04Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Has any city done this? Simply given free rides for everyone? My home town of Halifax runs a downtown-only bus called FRED - Free Rides Everywhere Downtown. It is sponsored by downtown merchants, who hope to keep shoppers from massing to the shopping malls. ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/22 "2004-10-09T03:15:34Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > I wonder if anyone knows of a “true” transit operator (i.e the Disneyland Monorail doesn’t count) outside of HK and Japan that operates at a profit? I believe [SMRT](http://www.smrt.com.sg/smrt/index.htm) in Singapore does, if you can believe this [press report](http://www.smrt.com.sg/mediarelease-1qfy05.pdf) (another PDF file). ---
**Author:** ![chukhung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@chukhung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chukhung)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/23 "2004-10-09T03:22:43Z")
> [@chukhung](#): > > Operating expenses before depreciation were only HK$1,769,000,00. Oops. :smack: The real figure is, of course, HK$1,769,000,000. (One billion, seven hundred sixty-nine million Hong Kong dollars). MTR Corp. keeps its expenses low, but not _that_ low… ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/24 "2004-10-09T04:13:57Z")
> [@Dewey Finn](#): > > Has any city done this? Simply given free rides for everyone? Given how little is collected via fares as a percentage of the total expense, it sounds worthwhile. Like Los Angeles, St. Louis has tickets, but no turnstiles. For several years (I don’t know if they still do) they left everyone ride free between the Downtown stops from 11 a.m. - 2 p.m. daily. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/25 "2004-10-09T08:54:11Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Once thay can’t guarantee that they can sell you a ticket, they’ll let you on without a ticket by opening the barriers. (There are also machines, but the policy does seem to recognise that people will often not have the exact change or credit cards that these may require - if they’re working.) It’s not a policy purely for that reason - I know of stations where the office is only open during the day, so in the evening there’s only machines available, and the barriers are still closed. > [@](#): > > I wonder if anyone knows of a “true” transit operator (i.e the Disneyland Monorail doesn’t count) outside of HK and Japan that operates at a profit? London’s Gatwick Express service produces a significant profit. It’s difficult to say if it’s _genuinly_ profitable, though, because you need to offset the permanent way costs of Network Rail and so on (it doesn’t run on a dedicated track but shares it with other regular services). ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/26 "2004-10-09T10:03:13Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > London’s Gatwick Express service produces a significant profit. It’s difficult to say if it’s _genuinly_ profitable, though, because you need to offset the permanent way costs of Network Rail and so on (it doesn’t run on a dedicated track but shares it with other regular services). I’m not well up on how everything works post-British Rail, but didn’t the current private rail lines pretty much get the existing infrastructure as a freebie? In other words, wouldn’t it be unfair to compare to a system that has to amortize its infrastructure investment? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/27 "2004-10-09T12:34:50Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > In other words, wouldn’t it be unfair to compare to a system that has to amortize its infrastructure investment? I doubt that the profitable Japanese networks mentioned earlier include the initial infrastructure costs. The closest I can come to is the Heathrow Express, which has moved into profit and mostly operates on dedicated track or on track upgraded for the purpose. I’m still not sure where the investment originated, and I think BAA (owners of Heathrow) were involved. Finding a transit system with complete financial independence from any other system or organisation is probably impossible, because they are necessarily integrated with their surroundings in every possible way. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/28 "2004-10-09T22:49:51Z")
I should point out that I most certainly did watch hundreds of people jump over and kick the turnstile barriers (the doors seem to have a mechanism that pops open if you really give it a shot, presumably so as not to harm anyone if they should close on someone accidently). This was in 1996, the last time I was in France other than changing planes. I wish I could remember which metro stop I actually hung around in for about an hour, but I can assure all that the means the average Parisian has found to defeat the system when no one’s looking was much more entertaining than some of the usual tourist attractions. I also saw a heck of a lot of people (although not as many as seemed to be cheating on the metro) hop over the exit turnstiles for regional rail (at la Defense, I do remember that location) which they could’ve just passed through if they had a valid ticket. I’ve been to a lot more places in Germany than France, but it seemed that most German cities don’t place any barriers at most U-Bahn stops and the only way you could tell if anyone was cheating there would be to actually check their ticket. Thanks to everyone for their answers. Usually American subway stops have human ticket sales right up near the turnstiles and this would make cheating more obvious and difficult. I don’t mean to suggest Americans are more honest than Europeans, just that in this case our honesty isn’t tested in the same way. So please don’t take offense. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/29 "2004-10-09T22:57:47Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > Usually American subway stops have human ticket sales right up near the turnstiles and this would make cheating more obvious and difficult. In my single visit to the US (Boston), I was very aware of this…and actually I could say it had little effect on any feeling of security - because that guy could say ‘I did my job’ leaving anyone else open to other options. As for the actual ticketing of public transport, they’re missing something huge… ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/30 "2004-10-09T23:42:47Z")
[QUOTE=Crandolph] Usually American subway stops have human ticket sales right up near the turnstiles and this would make cheating more obvious and difficult. I don’t mean to suggest Americans are more honest than Europeans, just that in this cas I don’t have much to add, except that Buffalo, New York also uses an honor system on their subway. No turnstiles; you either buy a ticket at the station, use a monthly pass or student bus pass card, or a valid bus transfer when a roving fare inspector asks to see your “proof pf payment.” The honor system was chosen because it was cheaper and easier to accomodate bus transfers, and because the system has a “free fare zone” downtown where you can ride the train for free as a shuttle. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/31 "2004-10-09T23:43:48Z")
\*\*GorillaMan \*\* - do you mean your personal security or the security of the transport system in getting a fare? In a modern American subway stop you’ll hardly ever see anyone hop the turnstile. I attribute this to A) there’s an employee looking right at you almost all of the time and B) you can’t clear the matter up with an on-the-spot fine here, it’s actually considered a crime and the police can arrest you for it. As far as your personal security, well, yes, the employee is in their little booth and you’re, um… not. :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/32 "2004-10-10T02:39:45Z")
Thanks for the links, everybody! IIRC, transit is also free in the downtown area of Portland, Oregon. I think the only time it’s free here in Vancouver is New Year’s Eve. Translink (who run the system) aren’t going make it free anytime soon; they recently announced plans for fare increases. ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251/33 "2004-10-10T05:07:14Z")
In Seattle, there is [no charge](http://transit.metrokc.gov/tops/bus/ridefree.html) to ride Metro Transit buses in the downtown area between 6am and 7pm. [Here](http://transit.metrokc.gov/tops/bus/area_maps/seattle_cbd.html)’s a map of the “Ride Free Area”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/european-public-transport-freeloader-economics/268251.md?page=1)