Yeah, you’re right they are! Followed pretty closely by the US of A. The fact remains that these three cultures are based on a long standing protestant tradition. To boot it’s the extreme views that people see best from the outside.
I take it you are Swedish… ‘Bibel Baeltet’ (i never remember how to do the umlaut in HTML) would be the area tha stretches east west around Jonkoping in Smaland. More than 50% of the population down there give their creed as ‘fri kyrklig’ best translated as independent protestant, read fundamentalist. You remember KDS? The Christian fundamentalist political party that is no more, after it was found out that Alf Svensson preacher and party chairman was a full blown adulterer and a filanderer of the first water. Were do you think they came from?
Whoever has told you that? Alf Svensson has never been involved in any such scandal and he is aiming at becoming PM at the next election (Chtulu forbid).
Well, hrrm someone told me… news by word of mouth is obviously not a secure source! I wanted it to be true…it would have been so perfect!
Haven’t lived up there for so many years that I am kind of out of the loop! Sweden really doesn’t make that many headlines on the continent.
I somehow recollect that he is a preacher in his church, although I do know that he originally was a teacher (but maybe I am fabricating that as well).
In all cases I agree: may the devils hold Alf Svensson far from the seats of government! He’s like Al and Tipper Gore in one with the wits of George W. Bush.
Lessee, in the latest SIFO polls “Atheist” is THE biggest religion in Sweden. No cite, but I remember reading it in DN (biggest newspaper in Sweden).
Homosexual marriage is legal here, and homosexual adoption is under debate in Riksdagen right now. Age of consent is 15. Abortions can be had by children under 18 for taxmoney without the parents’ having to find out. Condoms are handed out to children below 18 for free. Sex ed starts in 3rd grade nowadays. In 8th grade it goes further, with things like different sexual positions, the joys of masturbation, kids practice putting on condoms with bananas/test tubes/whatever, and everyone points out over and over again how normal it is with homosexuality (compare that with the Planned Parenthood in the USA thread).
This doesn’t sound like a culture close to the USA.
And KDS still exist (they’re called KD now though), and the Alf Svensson “scandal” seems to be in your mind. He’s still one of Sweden’s bigger political leaders, the second most popular in the opposition after Bo Lundgren. They point out over and over again that they’re not agenda-pushers and that their party is based on Christian ethics, so it’s a party for people of any faith. And it isn’t just PR talk, it really does describe them somewhat well.
And I’d say that the GOP is MORE fundamentally christian than KD. KD have no issues with abortion, for instance – the only thing that separates them from the other parties, really, is that they traditionally don’t like homosexuals as much as the others. (they’re quite opposed to the new homosexual adoption bill, and they don’t support adding “sexuality” to the criteria for “hets mot folkgrupp”)
Regarding KD I apologize once more for my errant information…(see previous post).
I concede that all these things are true about the ‘old country’.
But which part of the American culture you refer to in comparison? What segment of population? If we are talking about the very loudspoken (but minor part of the pop. Chritian Rights Movement you are indeed correct , but if you intend large numbers of liberal Democrats, you’re just expressing European (or Swedish prejudice)
What about San Francisco? What about the growing number of states that are considering to accept homosexual common law marriages? How about the fact that the world fact book gives atheism or lack of creed as the second largest creed in America after General Protestant (which probably also contains a large number of atheists or at least agnostics)?
What about the fact that sweden has more cases of race crimes than any other North European country? What about Sweden (like the US) having an overrepresentation of organized white power extremism?
How come a large portion of the world’s antiglobalism movement is organized from Sweden and sic Oregon?
The Swedes are definitely not American, but they are sure a lot closer to the American way of life than for instance the French. I know you guys hate to hear that. - For those who are not Swedish, we all speak English more or less fluently, consume mostly US goods and media and yet would probably like to be (politically speaking) closer to the old East.
The resemblance is most apparent in the subtleties…Sweden is big country like America, hence people respect distance and space around each other. Hard work and determination is what is most appreciated in a co-worker. Consensus counts further than dictates and orders in social and professional life. Hierarchies are flat in society and business. There is a cult of body and physical achievement that makes both places unusually successful in international sports. The rights of the individual to be his or her own in opinion and lifestyle is fundamental to the culture and oddly enough not at all respected… you’re still expected to fully conform.
Go live in Illinois, Montana, New Mexico or Oregon or so… you’ll be astonished how much it is like home away from home.
I spent enough years in both places to experience the similarities first hand. I’ll tell you what…on the surface Sweden felt more liberal, but when I got down to brass tacks the Americans were a hell of a lot more tolerant in my view.
When it comes to sex education and the respect of humans and their inherent sexuality there is a HUGE difference, no question, but Sweden stands apart to the rest of the world there and yes, especially to the US.
Comparing GOP to any party in Europe is futile…the political system is just too different. You must consider that American politics are largely built on candidate driven elections, not party politics. The GOP ranges from liberal right to extremely reactionary when compared to European politics…that’s schizophrenic by our standards.
I haven’t been to the USA, you got me there. Most of my experience with Americans has been through the internet. But I’ve seen people here on the SDMB talk about how it can be hard to get promoted if you mention that you’re an atheist, how many christians feel that atheists are somehow “less moral” than atheists, etc.) Maybe this isn’t true, but I’ve read it repeated times here, from Americans.
The SIFO data was something like 45% atheist, 30% christian (off the top of my head). That’s not very similar.
Why a flag, indeed? But, flag or no flag; I think an American or Canadian is appreciated here. So are the English. We’re suckers for anyone who speaks English. The main reason I think, is all the English / American movies and shows on TV.
We were kinda irritated with the American politics, but that has changed after 11/9.
As far as I know, Holland is 100% behind the USA now.
any car coming “maybe” from the Netherlands, gets searched at the French border.
That’s because it might be filled with the things you think I’m on, Sparculees.
Like I said, I spent some time in Holland (Dutch not Danish!!!) a few months ago. I felt really comfortable and the people seemed real friendly. There were a few older people that gave me a weird look but everybody else was real nice. One thing I have noticed as a difference in Americans and the Dutch is how much louder Americans are. I found myself speaking too loud on a number of occasions and tried to keep it down. Is this typical of all Europeans or was this just Holland?
That would depend were and with who you are in the States. In California saying that you’re a member of the Church of Christ the Nazarene might have the same effect as saying that your an Atheist in Tennessee, while claiming that the Great Baba Yaga is your personal backer and that you are in frequent spiritual conference with an alien being called Urvadour from a star system close to the Tannhauser Gate might very well get you that long sought for promotion.
Claiming any of all that in Europe is of course most likely to get you either fired or committed.
ARIS is rife with difficult conclusions, which the authors also acknowledge. They find that 80.2% of the US pop. Claimed to be religious with 76.5% giving Christian and 3.7% ‘other’, while 14.1% state to have no religion and 5.7% refused to answer. Note that people claiming to not be religious doubled from 1990 to 2001. So far so good.
The problems start with the interpretation of these figures. For instance; what does Catholic mean? Is it a religion or a cultural origin? My American sister in law is definitely agnostic which she knows and readily admits in conversation. However being from very traditional Canadian and Peruvian families, when asked what her religion is she invariably responds Catholic. ARIS reflects this in the figure of religious adherents that report membership in a church; which for all creeds averages out at 54%. Note that 19% of the non-religious respondents claim membership in a church.
To sort this out they asked the interviewees to state their own view on their religiosity as Secular, Somewhat Secular, Somewhat Religious or Religious. This yielded 10% secular, 6% somewhat secular, 38% Somewhat Religious and 37% Religious, while 9% refused or could not answer. Reading those figures I have to ask myself how large a portion of the ‘Somewhat Religious’ should actually be qualified as agnostic? Counting very conservatively I say arbitrarily; a third, which puts the number of non religious people to 28% (double already). Note that in the age group 18-34 secular or slightly so hits 23% and somewhat religious accounts for 43% yielding by my arbitrary recount of agnostics a total of at least 37% being non religious, some 29% somewhat religious and a maximum of 27% really religious, while 7% don’t know or won’t answer.
I don’t have access to the SIFO figures at this point but I take Dryga Yes estimates to be fairly believable although the Atheist figure looks a little high. I would say that my personal experience is that few people really know what Atheist means and when you apply Occam’s Razzor to their claim they are usually agnostic. ‘No religion’ is a better term. Atheism is in a way a religion since it entails the absolute denial of the existence of God, a divine power, a mysterious force or any other supernatural being, as well as a denial of the existence of an eternal soul and the possibility of reincarnation. You need faith to go that far…trust me I know! In all cases, as you see with more scrutiny the figures for America come closer and I am sure that with a critical eye the Swedish figures will shift towards a more median point and then we will be even closer. Compared to, Asia, The Middle east, Africa and South America as well as many other European countries both average an unusually high number of non religious people.
Does this settle anything? Absolutely not in my viewpoint. We were looking for where Americans stand apart from Europeans, but more from some Europeans than others if I remember correctly. Someone mentioned morals earlier…Dryga Yes, I believe (BTW why do you have a detergent slogan as nick?). Let us remember that protestant culture is in theory governed by Christian morals (the ten commandments) while Catholic culture by the Christian deed (charity, self-sacrifice and piety). Following one of those paths will then in theory bring you redemption. In the protestant faith(s) you are absolved through your, hopefully successful everyday struggle against sin, while Catholics are absolved by performing deeds of goodness that equal out your sin. The difference between the two obviously being the theological heart point of the reformation.
Now…even if the number of Catholics is very high in America the land is very much based on a protestant culture. The constitution is, the moral standards are, the ethical standards and things like work moral as well. As is Northern Europe, although here we see a highly secularized morality resulting in Protestantism shifting into Socialism, which brings about an added layer of morals and ethics that try to deal with the good and well-being of the collective. The secularization of US Protestantism has instead followed a slightly different path adapted to the basic belief in absolute freedom and everybody’s inalienable right to earn success, or Individualism if you like.
Now in the case of Southern Europe (including some parts of Germany) where the culture is predominantly Catholic the differences become even more apparent while also there are fewer similarities. Like in the North there has been a secularization of morals and ethics following the rise of Socialism, but in this case based on Catholic morals and ethics. The French, who after all started all of this back in the day are a good example. While the Catholic culture puts little value to the strife towards moral perfection Northern Europe and America stand out as being somewhat goody two shoed in comparison. Meanwhile the Socialist tradition sets a perpetual frown on all things that are Individualistic. In other words; in France you can socially and morally get away with pretty much anything as long as you regret mistakes and make up for it at some point and you don’t flaunt your individuality too much.
This is very apparent in many aspects of everyday life even if it is changing fast. There was a time when getting services performed in France was like playing the lottery. If your plumbing was backed up you’d be lucky if the pipe man brought his tools on the first visit, if he even showed up. France also has one of the highest levels of infidelity in the western world. Again this is changing fast, but most of my French friends were completely nonplused at my mild fury some years ago when my ex-wife decided that my best man from our wedding was a better bed partner than me…”So what, its just sex? Come on…you never cheated on her?”. That I never did was seen by several of both my male and female friends as ‘unnatural’. Now we protestants (I’m an atheist BTW) aren’t perfect…but we sure as hellfire think that we should be. The same story led to my American, German and Swedish friends ostracizing my wife before we even had time to divorce…I also have some Italian and Arab friends that wanted to take it to a different level, but that’s an altogether other story.
All in all I think that this is very much at the heart of why Americans are sometimes viewed askew in Europe. In the North there is more shared ground, while American hardcore fundamentalism still goes a little too far for the sensibilities of the ‘enlightened’ Europeans and the individualism is a divider all over. For the rest the south-north, Protestant-Catholic differences puts Americans, Scandinavians, Dutch, Brits and Germans in the same boat. You might note that the Thirty Years War in the 17th century, the bloodiest war in the history of mankind was wielded over this issue on what is today German ground by the Swedes The Habsburgs and the French leaving the German speaking countries in a devastated state almost as bad as after WW II and killing over 30% of the central European population. Arguably the extension of that unresolved conflict eventually led to both the French and American revolution as well as WW I and II.
You might note that I have left out the former Communist states throughout all of this…it’s just too big an issue as it is, without dragging in 85 years of Communism and 46 years of cold war.
And Käse: The English, Irish, Dutch and Scandinavians get English language TV programs and Film while the other 320 million or so Europeans get it dubbed in their own language.
And Umm…Yeaah Yes the Americans are unusually loud by European standards, as am I… Then again everyone thinks I’m a Yank anyway… it’s not a problem in itself but it does put you in the spotlight, which given that you seem to be pretty much as American as can be you might want to avoid.
You bring up 9/11 Käse. Even if Europeans were stunned and full of sympathy at first and generally supportive of the war effort. The Bush administration’s delay in putting down the foot in the Israeli conflict, the treatment of Qaeda, POWs and the dogmatic tone in the Axis of Evil debate is shifting relations back to a state maybe worse than before the terrorist attacks.
Further, the US-EU trade war has taken off again. Something we might not notice so much every day but for the French this is a very, very sore point post the politically motivated tariffs imposed by the US on cheese, wine and other prestigeous French exports in 1999 and 2000. The latest blow was steel by the US answered by the EU with a list of tariffs on produce that have little overal financial impact but impact heavily in regions were electorate support is critical for the Bush administration such as Florida.
I’d say that political relations aren’t exactly frosty…but cordial would be an exageration as well.
