# Europeans worried about Islamic immigrants. Simple racism or are immigrants causing real problems? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565 "2010-03-06T23:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/61 "2010-03-09T00:52:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The universal seat of enlightenment is located in Saudi Arabia where women can’t go out in public alone, little girls are sent back into burning buildings because they don’t have the proper head scarves and gay people are executed. Huh? The fact that Mecca is traditionally the most holy spot in the Muslim religion doesn’t mean that Muslims in general consider the nation-state of Saudi Arabia, where Mecca is located, to be “the universal seat of enlightenment” in any political or doctrinal sense. Muslims as a group are not obligated to support Saudi Arabia’s harsh and repressive theocracy just because Mecca happens to be located within its borders. And in fact, many of them don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/62 "2010-03-09T02:42:54Z")
Saudi Arabia a seat of enlightenment? Other Arabs laugh at Saudis for their lack of education and culture. Nope, this place is not looked to by many as the ideal. Certainly not by the people who live here. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/63 "2010-03-09T04:26:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Huh? The fact that Mecca is traditionally the most holy spot in the Muslim religion doesn’t mean that Muslims in general consider the nation-state of Saudi Arabia, where Mecca is located, to be “the universal seat of enlightenment” in any political or doctrinal sense. > > Muslims as a group are not obligated to support Saudi Arabia’s harsh and repressive theocracy just because Mecca happens to be located within its borders. And in fact, many of them don’t. I understand your point but the Saudi’s think they are “the keepers of the flame” even if other Muslims don’t and it is that Mid-East mentality that drives this thread. As I said before, there are 2 types of Muslim immigrants in Europe: those stuck in the 7th century, and those who aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/64 "2010-03-09T04:34:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I understand your point but the Saudi’s think they are “the keepers of the flame” even if other Muslims don’t and it is that Mid-East mentality that drives this thread. 😕 Sorry, you lost me. Most Muslim immigrants to Europe AFAIK are not Saudis, so I’m not quite seeing how the Saudi self-image is “driving this thread”. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/65 "2010-03-09T07:27:35Z")
You know, it’s just like with all the Catholics in the world who want nothing more than have Berlusconi as their president. ---
**Author:** ![footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footballisplayedwithyourfeet)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/66 "2010-03-09T10:11:19Z")
> [@Marienee](#): > > As one of the non-muslim western brides brought in from abroad, may I just say that the fact that there is little to no mention of us does not mean that the laws passed under the Wilders Cabinet will not affect us – nor that the current climate si entirely a comfortable place to be.. Poles are in a different category, legally, because they are EU, so they won’t have to deal with it. Not that the PVV won’t try, but they will not succeed unless they also succeed in pulling Holland out of the EU. I totally agree, my mom is also a non-muslim bride that moved to the Netherlands and she says the attitude towards her have changed considerably the last decade (she’s lived here for more than 30 years now), and not for the better. > [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Anecdote, but my experience is that while probably the majority of PVV voters are indeed coming from either the economic “law and order” center-right or right (VVD, CDA), there is a significant group of ex - SP (and possibly PvdA) left voters too. I also don’t think that the image of the SP voter as disillusioned with “main stream politics” is completely undeserved, and the PVV is clearly playing to that crowd more than the SP is doing right now. > > We may be able to get more precise data once the June election results are in. There are plenty of towns with traditionally very left wing (SP) voters (I suggest Doesburg and Oss off the top of my head) and it could be interesting to watch for shifts to the PVV there. Also with the last municipal elections (march 3rd) they had this stat - which I believe refered to people that were polled - that showed that the biggest ‘sources’ of PVV supporters were the people who previously either didn’t vote or voted SP. It should be said in this context that they ask what people voted last time around, and last time around the SP became huge (from 9 to 25); so a lot of new supporters. For this election there was also a lack of a clear right wing party (after Fortuyn’s legacy imploded and crumbled away); there were about 4 smaller perties (Wilders’ one was one of them) and it was unclear which one would become important. All these issues _might_ have caused part of the electorate of the SP to consist of protest votes that are now going to Wilders. But I agree with **Svejk** ’s contentions about the SP not being particularly nationalist; it is just that (and now there is some evidence for it) they fish from the same pond as Wilders does. > [@Latro](#): > > Very true. > I myself voted for Fortuyn, for those exact reasons. > Dutch politics is a sham, a game played by the regent class where they play the population for fools. We do not live in a democracy and they do what they want. > > It was good to see them squirm before Fortuyn, and after he was murdered, it felt good to vote for a dead man. > Wilders too is getting a lot of “protest votes” against the way we are governed. Yeah, everyone to their own, but I never really got this. Our purple government period was one of our most prosporous periods; that’s why they won after the first term and got another one. But suddenly Fortuyn shows up and everything Purple did was bad, just saying that the attitude seemed to switch from one extreme to other rather quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/67 "2010-03-09T11:29:16Z")
> [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](#): > > Yeah, everyone to their own, but I never really got this. Our purple government period was one of our most prosporous periods; that’s why they won after the first term and got another one. But suddenly Fortuyn shows up and everything Purple did was bad, just saying that the attitude seemed to switch from one extreme to other rather quickly. Point is that the votes Wilders is getting is not a clear indicative that the Dutch have suddenly gone Nazi. A lot of people are tired of the game. The game that is played with 3 pawns (red, blue and green). Come election time we can choose a colour. a coalition is formed between two of the colours. They screw around for a couple of years, people get fed up and a new coalition is formed from the 3 available pawns. rinse, repeat… Oh there are other pawns; the SP, D66, the Greens but do they really get to play? ever? But the pool wherefrom these smaller parties are fishing seems to be growing and it looks as if the established three might be outnumbered. But not even that huge victory by the SP meant they could be part of the government, now did it? ---
**Author:** ![footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footballisplayedwithyourfeet)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/68 "2010-03-09T12:05:06Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Point is that the votes Wilders is getting is not a clear indicative that the Dutch have suddenly gone Nazi. A lot of people are tired of the game. > > The game that is played with 3 pawns (red, blue and green). Come election time we can choose a colour. a coalition is formed between two of the colours. > They screw around for a couple of years, people get fed up and a new coalition is formed from the 3 available pawns. rinse, repeat… > > Oh there are other pawns; the SP, D66, the Greens but do they really get to play? ever? > But the pool wherefrom these smaller parties are fishing seems to be growing > and it looks as if the established three might be outnumbered. > > But not even that huge victory by the SP meant they could be part of the government, now did it? I don’t disagree with anything in particular - except that D66, CU and LPF have all been in government lately, so saying the smaller parties don’t get the opportunity isn’t exactly true - but large amounts of people voting for a party whose statements are almost solely about muslims, does seem to indicate immigration is an issue:rolleyes: I don’t think I called any of these people Nazis btw. Hey, dutch government is always a coalition of different parties and coalitions are based on seats and not ‘victory’ as compared to prvious elections. The SP didn’t win, they came in third and the actual winner (CDA) had the first go at finding a coalition. If we had a different system (UK or US) we probably would have had two parties alternating government…without the option of voting for a fringe party and them actually winning a seat. You are right that more and more people are moving away from the established parties, and this could become quite problematic (not normatively, but just because it will be difficult to get a stable coalition). Without going too much into dutch politics - I seems this thread has been hijacked and trenasported to several time zones awy from the OP - it will be very hard to form a government if the polls are right, also given the distributions in the first chamber…anyway, any parties in government will probably lose next time around, because they will not be able to keep all there promises (because of being in a coalition). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/69 "2010-03-09T15:09:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Sorry, you lost me. Most Muslim immigrants to Europe AFAIK are not Saudis, so I’m not quite seeing how the Saudi self-image is “driving this thread”. I’m referring to the mindset of Saudi Wahhabi’s who think their version of Islam is correct in a way that can only be described as intense. It doesn’t matter if it’s Saudi Wahhabi, Persian Shiite, or Arab Sunni. The mindset retains all of it’s 7th century roots through Sharia law and it is not compatible with present day European societies. Nobody cares about modern Islamic practices. It’s just another religion in a huge mix of religions. It’s the far-right immigrant stuck in time that Europeans worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/70 "2010-03-09T16:01:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m referring to the mindset of Saudi Wahhabi’s who think their version of Islam is correct in a way that can only be described as intense. It doesn’t matter if it’s Saudi Wahhabi, Persian Shiite, or Arab Sunni. The mindset retains all of it’s 7th century roots through Sharia law and it is not compatible with present day European societies. > > Nobody cares about modern Islamic practices. It’s just another religion in a huge mix of religions. It’s the far-right immigrant stuck in time that Europeans worry about. And yet the Saudis are coming under (literal) attack for being impure and unfaithful by radical Islamic movements! The 1979 [Seizing of the Grand Mosque](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_Seizure) for example. From what I can tell it’s the Islamic equivalent of the Renaissance Catholic church vs the most fanatical Calvinist and Puritan protestants. Not a lot of tolerance to be found. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/71 "2010-03-09T20:01:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m referring to the mindset of Saudi Wahhabi’s who think their version of Islam is correct in a way that can only be described as intense. It doesn’t matter if it’s Saudi Wahhabi, Persian Shiite, or Arab Sunni. The mindset retains all of it’s 7th century roots through Sharia law and it is not compatible with present day European societies. > > Nobody cares about modern Islamic practices. It’s just another religion in a huge mix of religions. It’s the far-right immigrant stuck in time that Europeans worry about. I beg to differ, I have yet to hear anyone limit their attacks, legal or verbal, on Islam in Europe to the saudis nor to any particular sect. The official rhetoric used to be include all foreigners,(including people born with a Dutch passport) and has changed over time to meet the election results to include all non-western muslims. I think what they really want to say is that they don’t want people who believe in god, but cannot come up with a really good way to say that without pissing off the same people they are wooing with the “proud of Dutch culture” meme – seein’s Dutch culture includes (or did until recently) a fairly strong dose of god fearingness. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/72 "2010-03-10T13:57:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m referring to the mindset of Saudi Wahhabi’s who think their version of Islam is correct in a way that can only be described as intense. Actually I describe it as “extra spicy.” Doesn’t everyone think their own version any belief is correct? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/73 "2010-03-10T16:28:40Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Actually I describe it as “extra spicy.” > > Doesn’t everyone think their own version any belief is correct? Absolutely. The difference is that some are more spicier than others when discussing it. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/74 "2010-03-10T23:28:35Z")
I’ve posted on this subject a number of times but in no way is it as simple as “white racism”. Integration is possible but only when done generationally. That is, when there is a slowing down or even a complete halt to immigrants from one particular area so that the existing immigrants can assimilate over time. That is, the granddaughter of an immigrant (Muslim, Christian watever) will adopt most of the host countries values whilst still maintaining ertain, non-conflictive attribute of her family’s culture. Unfettered immigration does not allow for this and not addressing this issue will lead to further rise in far-right parties. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/75 "2010-03-10T23:51:12Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > I’ve posted on this subject a number of times but in no way is it as simple as “white racism”. > > Integration is possible but only when done generationally. That is, when there is a slowing down or even a complete halt to immigrants from one particular area so that the existing immigrants can assimilate over time. That is, the granddaughter of an immigrant (Muslim, Christian watever) will adopt most of the host countries values whilst still maintaining ertain, non-conflictive attribute of her family’s culture. > > Unfettered immigration does not allow for this and not addressing this issue will lead to further rise in far-right parties. why should there be any immigration? If the population is saturated why bring in more people? ---
**Author:** ![MerryGreenleaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc79bd/32.png) [@MerryGreenleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MerryGreenleaf)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/76 "2010-03-11T00:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Part of the problem in Europe is that there is a sense of fear that if we dare to criticise Islam we will be threatened with violence. It is that aspect that needs to be dealt with, not banning headscarves or minarets. Sadly I don’t believe our government has the balls to stand up and say that it is ok to criticise those parts of any religion which we may find offensive or devisive to society. > > One of the things that rankles me is when public buildings are used by muslim groups and men and women are segregated. This is quite clearly a form of discrimination, but is ignored to keep things quiet. I see that even in Europe you suffer with “political correctness.” No one should have any fear of speaking their opinion about any religion, group, whatever! I’m not sure how the PC Police were allowed to creep into society here in America, but I absolutely loathe a government, or anyone else tellilng me what phrases are ‘correct’ or which are going to piss off some group! Criticism should never be a crime or a threat and no one should have to fear getting hurt because they want to voice their opinion on something! Yet, today in this mixed up world, having a difference of opinion just seems to get someone’s ass kicked. I don’t care for Islam because of the degrading way women are treated. They’re segregated, some are never allowed to go to school, and they seem to be expendable. I think it’s fine to embrace your culture when you’re living in a foreign country. Traditions are important but they can be practiced within the home and community and should not take over the host country’s traditions and customs. But, I also believe that an immigrant should learn the language, traditions, and the rules of the country they are living in, and respect those traditions if they want respect in return. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/77 "2010-03-11T00:33:14Z")
> [@MerryGreenleaf](#): > > I see that even in Europe you suffer with “political correctness.” No one should have any fear of speaking their opinion about any religion, group, whatever! > I’m not sure how the PC Police were allowed to creep into society here in America, but I absolutely loathe a government, or anyone else tellilng me what phrases are ‘correct’ or which are going to piss off some group! > > Criticism should never be a crime or a threat and no one should have to fear getting hurt because they want to voice their opinion on something! “Political Correctness” is a weird beast. It’s used by the “bleeding heart liberals” who don’t want to discriminate against anyone and by the “religious fundamentalist right” who see it as a useful tool to prevent criticism. In any case, in a lot of Western Europe at least, it’s quite common to have anti-discrimination laws that are broad enough to potentially forbid harsh criticism and at least insults of religions. This is partially (still) the cultural norm too - insulting religions is usually frowned upon, though the tide is shifting and in the Netherlands at least there is a push towards removing those kinds of laws. And then there are also at least a few nutcases willing to outright kill people that say stuff that they perceive as insulting or threatening. How and why that came about and how that should be changed isn’t really relevant to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/78 "2010-03-11T05:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > immigrants causing real problems? Certainly tensions in some areas. > [@](#): > > When she first arrived in Sweden after her rescue from a Nazi concentration camp, Judith Popinski was treated with great kindness. > > She raised a family in the city of Malmo, and for the next six decades lived happily in her adopted homeland - until last year. > > In 2009, a chapel serving the city’s 700-strong Jewish community was set ablaze. Jewish cemeteries were repeatedly desecrated, worshippers were abused on their way home from prayer, and “Hitler” was mockingly chanted in the streets by masked men. > > “I never thought I would see this hatred again in my lifetime, not in Sweden anyway,” Mrs Popinski told The Sunday Telegraph. > > “This new hatred comes from Muslim immigrants. The Jewish people are afraid now.” > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/7278532/Jews-leave-Swedish-city-after-sharp-rise-in-anti-Semitic-hate-crimes.html)** ---
**Author:** ![scamartistry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@scamartistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scamartistry)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565/79 "2010-06-18T21:47:46Z")
Well one thing that might make people pause is the fact that Islam is not only a religion but also an ideology. There is no real separation between “church” and state. Islam is a way of life, which includes law and ethics. The Qur’an and accompanying books are supposedly the only and exclusively authority needed to run a state. This does not leave room for much else. Is it valid to be concerned against such claims? I would say yes Its of course not a real problem when muslims are in minority. The question is how tolerant this religion is towards other religions/way of lives, once they become more of a majority. There is a lot to the saying that “dont be so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europeans-worried-about-islamic-immigrants-simple-racism-or-are-immigrants-causing-real-problems/531565.md?page=3)