# Europe's anti-Semitism crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/1 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")
> **[The Troubling Question in the French Jewish Community: Is It Time to Leave?](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/07/anti-semitism-france-hostage-hyper-cacher-kosher-market)** > > Marie Brenner reports on an incendiary wave of anti-Semitism in France and speaks firsthand to one of the hostages from the siege on the Hyper Cacher kosher market. I suppose if people find the increasing entrenchment of Israel a problem, they can try to solve this problem, or encourage Jews to immigrate to the U.S. and Canada instead. ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/2 "2015-07-25T03:47:20Z")
Much of Europe’s rising antisemitism is a consequence of the increased levels of muslim immigration into traditionally Christian lands. Moreover, demographic trends will work out in the end. Western Jews tend to have sub replacement birthrates, and with minimal conversion to Judaism, will eventually fade out of Europe. Furthermore, Israel will continue to concentrate Jews in the Levant. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/3 "2015-07-25T05:04:40Z")
Haberdash, why make a post entitled “Europe’s anti-Semitism crisis” if you’re going to post an article about France ? I mean, I know we don’t act like it, but France is hardly the whole of Europe. As for the article, I’m not sure what to make of it, but at the same time it’s pretty weasely to project from the situation in Sarcelles and Garches-les-Gonesses. Yes, those places are likely hotbeds of antisemitism - as they are of every anti-. These suburbs of Paris were where the big housing projects were built in the 50s-60s, back when we brought over thousands of North Africans to rebuild after the war. It was also a major center of heavy industry. Now there’s no rebuilding to do and industry’s as dead as it is everywhere in the West, but the projects remain. With no jobs, no prospects of getting out and the rest of France wary of people who come from there, the people from those ghettos are naturally poor and angry. So, vandalism is common, and every shitty ideology that seeks out impressionable pissed off recruits is big there, whether we’re talking drug dealing gangs, neo-nazi skinheads or radical Islam. So that’s one thing. But I really, but really doubt you can point to swastikas on those walls and extrapolate to Brest, or Toulouse, or Lilles etc… Beyond that, I’d say it’s not so much a crisis as it is an old flame still burning. France has always been moderately hostile to Jews with occasional spikes, going back hundreds of years. It is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/4 "2015-07-25T05:32:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Haberdash, why make a post entitled “Europe’s anti-Semitism crisis” if you’re going to post an article about France ? I mean, I know we don’t act like it, but France is hardly the whole of Europe. > > As for the article, I’m not sure what to make of it, but at the same time it’s pretty weasely to project from the situation in Sarcelles and Garches-les-Gonesses. Yes, those places are likely hotbeds of antisemitism - as they are of every anti-. These suburbs of Paris were where the big housing projects were built in the 50s-60s, back when we brought over thousands of North Africans to rebuild after the war. It was also a major center of heavy industry. Now there’s no rebuilding to do and industry’s as dead as it is everywhere in the West, but the projects remain. With no jobs, no prospects of getting out and the rest of France wary of people who come from there, the people from those ghettos are naturally poor and angry. So, vandalism is common, and every shitty ideology that seeks out impressionable pissed off recruits is big there, whether we’re talking drug dealing gangs, neo-nazi skinheads or radical Islam. > So that’s one thing. But I really, but really doubt you can point to swastikas on those walls and extrapolate to Brest, or Toulouse, or Lilles etc… > > Beyond that, I’d say it’s not so much a crisis as it is an old flame still burning. France has always been moderately hostile to Jews with occasional spikes, going back hundreds of years. It is what it is. It’s hardly surprising that there’s going to be a lot of antagonism between North African Jews(70% of France’s Jewish population) and North African Muslims(which is probably an even higher percentage of France’s Muslim population). Contrary to popular belief Jews and Muslims didn’t start butting heads over Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/5 "2015-07-25T11:13:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It’s hardly surprising that there’s going to be a lot of antagonism between North African Jews(70% of France’s Jewish population) and North African Muslims(which is probably an even higher percentage of France’s Muslim population). Contrary to popular belief Jews and Muslims didn’t start butting heads over Palestine. I’m not really sure it’s that important. The “pied noir” Jew used to be a well known stereotype, with a peculiar accent, petulant character, typical job as a tailor, etc… and people knew where they came from and how, and why. It doesn’t seem true anymore to me, especially within the younger generation, the most likely to be involved in antisemitic incidents. It doesn’t seem to me that in general much distinction is made nowadays between Jews of different origins. Of course, it might be that young muslims from the “banlieues” are more aware than I would guess about them, from their parents or grand parents, but at least, I never heard any mention of antagonism being based on the colonial period in North Africa nowadays (\*). It might be however that it participated in a general hostility towards Jews (although older generations of immigrants aren’t particularly known for their rabid antisemitism) inherited by the younger generations. In any case, all criticism I read or hear is based on Israel policies, or on a perception of Jews in general, not on “they opressed us back then in Algeria”. (\*) different during the colonial period, since Jews had received French citizenship contrarily to Muslims, putting them in the same position as European colonists which obviously created resentment. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/6 "2015-07-25T11:31:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > As for the article, I’m not sure what to make of it, but at the same time it’s pretty weasely to project from the situation in Sarcelles and Garches-les-Gonesses. Yes, those places are likely hotbeds of antisemitism - as they are of every anti-. These suburbs of Paris were where the big housing projects were built in the 50s-60s, back when we brought over thousands of North Africans to rebuild after the war. It was also a major center of heavy industry. Now there’s no rebuilding to do and industry’s as dead as it is everywhere in the West, but the projects remain. With no jobs, no prospects of getting out and the rest of France wary of people who come from there, the people from those ghettos are naturally poor and angry. So, vandalism is common, and every shitty ideology that seeks out impressionable pissed off recruits is big there, whether we’re talking drug dealing gangs, neo-nazi skinheads or radical Islam. You know what we call people who react to losing their job, struggling with social integration, or stubbing their toe by blaming the Jews? Anti-Semites. You should hold people – whoever it is we’re talking about here – to a higher standard and not assume that burning down synagogues is a bodily response to misfortune. > [@](#): > > So that’s one thing. But I really, but really doubt you can point to swastikas on those walls and extrapolate to Brest Dieudonné’s hometown… > [@](#): > > or Toulouse > **[France shooting: Toulouse Jewish school attack kills four](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-17426313)** > > Three children and a teacher are shot dead by a gunman at a Jewish school in the French city of Toulouse - it is being linked to shootings last week. > [@](#): > > or Lilles etc… > **[Row in France over allegations of Islamism and anti-Semitism at Muslim school](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/teacher-quits-muslim-school-he-claimed-was-riddled-with-islamism-and-antisemitism-10031055.html)** > > The Averroès Lycée is suing the former staff member and denies all his claims > [@](#): > > Beyond that, I’d say it’s not so much a crisis as it is an old flame still burning. France has always been moderately hostile to Jews with occasional spikes, going back hundreds of years. It is what it is. Certainly. That’s an explanation both for the home-grown Le Pen fascists, who have the allegiance of at least 20% of white Frenchmen, and for why the state and society refuses to meaningfully respond to the [biweekly](http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/international/c/global-antisemitism-2014.html) violent assaults on Jews by Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/7 "2015-07-25T21:14:24Z")
[QUOTE=Haberdash] You know what we call people who react to losing their job, struggling with social integration, or stubbing their toe by blaming the Jews? Anti-Semites. You should hold people – whoever it is we’re talking about here – to a higher standard and not assume that burning down synagogues is a bodily response to misfortune. [/QUOTE] Because that’s what I was doing, natch :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Dieudonné’s hometown… So ? Plenty of assholes come from plenty of places. One guy means fuck all, and beyond that Dieudonné’s anti-Semitism comes from a very weird, _sui generis_ place. > [@](#): > > [France shooting: Toulouse Jewish school attack kills four - BBC News](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-17426313) I’m aware of that incident. I’m also aware that it was one guy, 3 years ago, and that the Muslim community at large condemned him (even the guy who “recruited” the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo massacre !) > [@](#): > > [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo…-10031055.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/teacher-quits-muslim-school-he-claimed-was-riddled-with-islamism-and-antisemitism-10031055.html) Now we’ve moved from “one guy” to “the unverified, disputed claims of one guy” :rolleyes:. > [@](#): > > Certainly. That’s an explanation both for the home-grown Le Pen fascists, who have the allegiance of at least 20% of white Frenchmen, and for why the state and society refuses to meaningfully respond to the [biweekly](http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/international/c/global-antisemitism-2014.html) violent assaults on Jews by Muslims. Certainly many Frontists are anti-semites (lord knows Le Pen Father made a career in wink-winking at them), but that’s not the sole reason people vote for the Front. Most just hate brown & black people and/or Muslims. A significant portion of their base are also “protest votes”, people who vote Front to manifest their strong distate for the current left OR right while at the same time hoping the Front won’t actually get anywhere. Which I feel is retarded but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/8 "2015-07-25T21:20:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So ? Plenty of assholes come from plenty of places. One guy means fuck all, and beyond that Dieudonné’s anti-Semitism comes from a very weird, _sui generis_ place. > I’m aware of that incident. I’m also aware that it was one guy, 3 years ago, and that the Muslim community at large condemned him (even the guy who “recruited” the perpetrators of the Charlie Hebdo massacre !) > Now we’ve moved from “one guy” to “the unverified, disputed claims of one guy” :rolleyes:. And this is how it happens. Deny, deny, deny, minimize, minimize, minimize. You can nitpick every example to somehow “not count” and yet, here we are with Jews being assaulted and murdered for being Jews so often in France that it’s not even news anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/9 "2015-07-25T21:25:08Z")
Kobal2 - take a look at this: [http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly\_fs/1.636886.1421163505!/image/4204928887.jpg\_gen/derivatives/landscape\_640/4204928887.jpg](http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.636886.1421163505!/image/4204928887.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/4204928887.jpg) Last year 7,000 French Jews immigrated to Israel. That was a record, as you can see from the graph. For 2015, the expected number is between 10,000 and 15,000. Again, look at the graph. Do you think that these people may know something you’re ignoring? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/10 "2015-07-25T21:48:21Z")
[QUOTE=Haberdash] And this is how it happens. Deny, deny, deny, minimize, minimize, minimize. You can nitpick every example to somehow “not count” and yet, here we are with Jews being assaulted and murdered for being Jews so often in France that it’s not even news anymore. [/QUOTE] Ah, I see. I guess it’s my mistake for expecting you were interested in actually debating, maybe understanding, gleaning information about the world from its residents and so forth. But if this is just about you spouting alarmist bullshit, ignoring anything anyone says and presumably seguing into a new and interesting page in your MUSLIMS BAD magnum opus, you can carry on without me. > [@Terr](#): > > Kobal2 - take a look at this: [http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly\_fs/1.636886.1421163505!/image/4204928887.jpg\_gen/derivatives/landscape\_640/4204928887.jpg](http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.636886.1421163505!/image/4204928887.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_640/4204928887.jpg) > > Last year 7,000 French Jews immigrated to Israel. That was a record, as you can see from the graph. For 2015, the expected number is between 10,000 and 15,000. Again, look at the graph. Do you think that these people may know something you’re ignoring? I’m thinking Charlie happened. What else did you expect ? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/11 "2015-07-25T22:05:03Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m thinking Charlie happened. What else did you expect ? 7,000 in 2014. _Before_ “Charlie”. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/12 "2015-07-25T22:13:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But if this is just about you spouting alarmist bullshit, ignoring anything anyone says and presumably seguing into a new and interesting page in your MUSLIMS BAD magnum opus, you can carry on without me. I think that French Muslims’ obsession with battering Jews is, indeed, bad. Is there some reason you are afraid of addressing this and would prefer to explain why no incident of anti-Semitism actually counts? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/13 "2015-07-25T22:22:58Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > French Muslims’ obsession with battering Jews You think this is much better than antisemitism? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/14 "2015-07-25T22:25:48Z")
My case, eet eez rested, Hastings. (yes, I know, Belgian. Still counts !) ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/15 "2015-07-25T22:26:34Z")
Do I think violence against Jews for being Jews is better than anti-Semitism? I think it’s the most obvious form of it. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/16 "2015-07-25T22:51:41Z")
Jews in Europe are done for, or maybe they’re not. There’s really not a lot that can be done either way, and I can’t really be worked up to be tremendously upset about it as long as the primary involved part refuse to acknowledge the issue at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/17 "2015-07-25T23:10:51Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Jews in Europe are done for, or maybe they’re not. Well, that’s one way to hedge your bets. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/18 "2015-07-25T23:28:20Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Do I think violence against Jews for being Jews is better than anti-Semitism? I think it’s the most obvious form of it. That’s great debates. It would be nice if you stopped being disingenuous. What is your opinion of someone who makes a general statement about the members of a group accusing them all of nefarious intents? And how would you call someone making such statements? Since you seem to have difficulties processing the word “Muslims”, let’s call this group “Jews”. People stating that Jews are obsessed with nefarious behaviour X are called… (try to find what the missing word is). ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/19 "2015-07-25T23:42:20Z")
So I guess this is the new leftist attitude towards anti-Semitism? Don’t talk about it, don’t claim it exists, if you think it ever happens you’re not listening, and certainly don’t try to address the fact that Muslims in France are obsessed with the physical destruction of Jews, because THAT group is beyond reproach. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/20 "2015-07-26T00:03:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, that’s one way to hedge your bets. Yes, or rather not even going to the horse track in the first place. The discrepancy arises from the fact that a lot of outsiders make a lot of noise on behalf of the Jews, and certainly from the outside the situation for Jews looks rather dismal, however the official Jewish organisations say there are no problems, and certainly not a problem with Muslims. So that’s what I’m going to put my faith in. If they want me to be upset, or even do something, about the situation of Jews in Europe, the official Jewish organisations will have to come out and clearly state that there is a problem and exactly what the problem is. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=2)