# Europe's anti-Semitism crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/61 "2015-07-26T22:50:04Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The fact that you consider objecting to Jew-bashing a sign of being “conservative” says a lot about the leftist position on the issue. The problem is when people use the fear of antisemitism as a political tool, to distract from Israel’s barbarism against the Palestinians or as a way to promote war against Iran. Israel’s supporters do this constantly. It’s also a convenient way of ignoring class struggles that exist in societies like France. It’s easy to talk about how scary the big bad Muslims are while ignoring how _poor_ they are and how that plays a decisive role in proclivity towards violence. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/62 "2015-07-26T22:58:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not alarmist bullshit. There is a serious problem in France and Europe. The term “French Muslim” is something of an oxymoron. \*\* There is little if any cultural absorption \*\*of a significant portion of immigrating Muslims into France. What a load of horseshit. Kobal and Ramira are obviously in better position to judge than I am, but AFAIK, the vast majority of Muslims prefer to speak French over Arabic and that’s even more true of second and third generation French Muslims. Beyond that, the vast majority prefer western music and movies to the pop culture of North Africa. People will notice that even the Anti-Semitism they adopt has a Western flavor to it. The Quanelle was not invented in Algiers but in France and is rarely, if ever, used in the Middle East. And that’s even true of Muslims radicals. Islamic radicalism is usually not the province of recent immigrants but the children or grandchildren of immigrants who’ve come to find that that the dreams their parents or grandparents had were false. To use a British example, a great film that I loved called My Son the Fanatic, the moderate Muslims also spoke with thick Pakistani accents that sounded like they were fresh off the boat while the radicals all spoke with clipped British accents and were clearly embarrassed by the way their parents spoke. Muslims in France are assimilated, they’re just not accepted. > [@](#): > > “Western” countries routinely make fun of Christianity and other religions with little response to it. And Muslims in Muslim countries often enjoy making jokes about both Imams and Muhammad. Westerners however haven’t seen their countries conquered and invaded recently.Turn things around and you’ll see a different response. Muslims were angry at the Charlie cartoons because they saw them as an attack on them and their community. If you want a similar comparison, what would have happened to anyone who decided to spray paint “The Pope’s a Queer” or “Fuck the Pope” in the wrong neighborhood in Belfast during the height of the Troubles. The answer of course is if they were very lucky, they’d simply get a severe beating. Was this because the Catholics of Northern Ireland were fanatics about their religion? No, instead to them their religion was more like a tribal identity and they saw themselves as an embattled, historically persecuted minority and saw such an act of vandalism as an attack on them and their community by their oppressors. None of what I’m saying is meant to excuse what happened to the Charlie cartoonists. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/63 "2015-07-26T22:58:33Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > The problem is when people use the fear of antisemitism as a political tool, to distract from Israel’s barbarism against the Palestinians or as a way to promote war against Iran. Israel’s supporters do this constantly. As I said when starting this thread, before it became “every left-winger on the board explains why we shouldn’t be concerned about pogroms against Jews,” the issues are related in a different way. If you want to convince Israel to give up its existence as a Jewish state, then you will need to convince a lot of people that a haven for Jews is not needed. When even a Western European democracy isn’t safe, there’s no chance of this happening. > [@](#): > > It’s also a convenient way of ignoring class struggles that exist in societies like France. It’s easy to talk about how scary the big bad Muslims are while ignoring how _poor_ they are and how that plays a decisive role in proclivity towards violence. The fact that their reaction to economic stress is to light Jews on fire is their problem. There’s a reason that it’s easy to talk about contemporary Islam adopting “death to the Jews” as the response to any and every problem; it’s because this is a phenomenon that is happening, and is having significant consequences for the Jews in France as well as the Israel issue. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/64 "2015-07-26T23:00:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Muslims were angry at the Charlie cartoons because they saw them as an attack on them and their community. And they killed 12 people over it because their religion teaches an insane honor culture where murdering someone for making you “angry” is not just acceptable but encouraged. > [@](#): > > None of what I’m saying is meant to excuse what happened to the Charlie cartoonists. Uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/65 "2015-07-26T23:03:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not alarmist bullshit. There is a serious problem in France and Europe. The term “French Muslim” is something of an oxymoron. There is little if any cultural absorption of a significant portion of immigrating Muslims into France. It’s enough of a problem to cause open hostility and riots. > > “Western” countries routinely make fun of Christianity and other religions with little response to it. It’s practically an art form unto itself. The pathetically innocent Charlie magazine publication defines the situation and the religion. Islam is still carrying the same baggage from a 1000 years ago and no amount of political correctness can whitewash the crazy out of it. > > We’re not seeing antisemitism, we’re seeing the fallout of the Islamic religion. Pick whatever ratio you want, 80/20, 50/50… it doesn’t matter. Whatever number you choose it represents a significant number of violent people within a demographic group of this size. ISIS is one of hundreds if not thousands of radical groups based around the religion. We’ve been over this rutted road back during the teen riots of 2005 and 2006. The issue has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam. It has everything to do with the treatment of immigrant Muslims to France. The youth riots, then, occurred mostly among non-practicing children of Muslim parents and were routinely condemned in the mosques at that time. However, with the treatment of immigrant youth, (who are overwhelmingly Muslim), extraordinarily high rates of unemployment, and similar problems, the immigrant youth are more easily led into crime and violence. There is an increase in propaganda from ISIS sources, (but only in the last several months), that invoke Islam as a rallying point and promote antisemitism, but the youth have shown no evidence of actually becoming more devoutly Muslim. Among Muslims, second generation immigrants and people who have lived in France for years consistently poll as more devoutly Muslim, but also more supportive of France and less tolerant of violence than people of European stock whose families have been French for centuries. Blaming Islam runs counter to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/66 "2015-07-26T23:07:53Z")
Beating up Jews and firebombing synagogues _is_ how you become more devoutly Muslim in the France of 2015. It has become the central ritual of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/67 "2015-07-26T23:10:07Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > As I said when starting this thread, before it became “every left-winger on the board explains **why we shouldn’t be concerned about pogroms against Jews** ,” the issues are related in a different way. If you want to convince Israel to give up its existence as a Jewish state, then you will need to convince a lot of people that a haven for Jews is not needed. When even a Western European democracy isn’t safe, there’s no chance of this happening. (emphasis mine) That’s a huge strawman. There are no pogroms going on against Jews in Europe, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. On the other hand, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is far, far worse than anything European Jews are being subjected to in the present day. When you have people like Joe Lieberman claiming that Obama is marching Jews into the ovens, and right-wing nuts like Michael Savage claiming a second Holocaust is coming, you have reached peak hysteria that has lost all touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/68 "2015-07-26T23:13:40Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > (emphasis mine) > > That’s a huge strawman. There are no pogroms going on against Jews in Europe, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. What the fuck do you call what happened in Saracelles last year? This is the face of left-wing anti-Semitism – even a re-enactment of Kristallnacht gets denied. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is far, far worse than anything European Jews are being subjected to in the present day. As is this typical response – it doesn’t count if it’s collective punishment of every Jew in the world for the crimes of the Israel government. > [@](#): > > When you have people like Joe Lieberman claiming that Obama is marching Jews into the ovens, and right-wing nuts like Michael Savage claiming a second Holocaust is coming, you have reached peak hysteria that has lost all touch with reality. Joe Lieberman? Michael Savage? No wonder you aren’t aware of the Muslim destruction of a Jewish quarter last summer, you’re still living in 2004. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/69 "2015-07-26T23:15:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > .,.,.,…There is an increase in propaganda from ISIS sources, …,.,.,.Blaming Islam runs counter to the facts. Yes and I agree, but if I were to post more proof I would be accused of spamming and banned from posting here again. I ask that you let me be, I am no threat, just an old man mumbling in the background But again, I totally agree with your post (:- ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/70 "2015-07-26T23:16:14Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Beating up Jews and firebombing synagogues _is_ how you become more devoutly Muslim in the France of 2015. It has become the central ritual of the religion. Utter bullshit. Even among those inflicting violence, the number of actual ISIS-inspired Muslims is minuscule. Fighting fact free hatred is hardly the best way to fight fact free hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/71 "2015-07-26T23:17:51Z")
Ah, a new one on the list – even if a Muslim kills a random Jew and says it’s because Islam commands him to do so, it doesn’t count if it wasn’t specifically ISIS that said to do it. Left-wingers sure do spend a lot of time coming up with new reasons why dead Jews never count. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/72 "2015-07-26T23:20:29Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > That’s a huge strawman. There are no pogroms going on against Jews in Europe, or anywhere else in the world for that matter. On the other hand, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is far, far worse than anything European Jews are being subjected to in the present day. Pogroms? Perhaps not. Genuine terrorist attacks? Definitely. Justifying one act of violence as a response to a different act of violence is nothing more than taking sides and cheering the violence of the side you favor. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/73 "2015-07-26T23:24:10Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > (emphasis mine) > When you have people like Joe Lieberman claiming that Obama is marching Jews into the ovens, and right-wing nuts like Michael Savage claiming a second Holocaust is coming I’m not aware of Joe Lieberman making such a claim. Are you sure you’re not thinking of Mike Huckabee. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/74 "2015-07-26T23:27:12Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > .,.,.,.,…,.No wonder you aren’t aware of the Muslim destruction of a Jewish quarter last summer, you’re still living in 2004. By all means, produce some links, quotes from other sources or whatever but if you think I, a stranger automatically believes what you say is fact, think again. I have been down that road before and burned in the process. If you have something to say at least produce some facts to support your assertions Ok (:- ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/75 "2015-07-26T23:32:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not aware of Joe Lieberman making such a claim. Are you sure you’re not thinking of Mike Huckabee. Yes, I was thinking of Huckabee, my apologies. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Pogroms? Perhaps not. Genuine terrorist attacks? Definitely. > > Justifying one act of violence as a response to a different act of violence is nothing more than taking sides and cheering the violence of the side you favor. No one here is justifying violence, though. Quite the opposite, I would like acts of antisemitism to stop being used as fuel for violence by the right. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/76 "2015-07-26T23:34:21Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Ah, a new one on the list – even if a Muslim kills a random Jew and says it’s because Islam commands him to do so, it doesn’t count if it wasn’t specifically ISIS that said to do it. Do you have an example of where this has actually occurred? (Leaving aside the fact that what you atrtributed to me is nothing like what I actually said.) If it has occurred, do you have evidence that the perpetrator was actually Muslim, and not simply the non-practicing child of a Muslim? Amedy Coulibaly, Chérif Kouachi, and Saïd Kouachi were born and raised in France. They were only converted to practicing Islam after they had already begun a life of crime. They are also among a tiny minority of the rioters who have actually embraced Islam. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/77 "2015-07-26T23:36:43Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > No one here is justifying violence, though. Quite the opposite, I would like acts of antisemitism to stop being used as fuel for violence by the right. That is hardly what your attack on Israel suggests, but OK. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/78 "2015-07-26T23:39:47Z")
As an American please tell me what a Jewish quarter is? But if you do not know & you just used the term because it read well, then say so. must I google it instead-? just asking (:- ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/79 "2015-07-26T23:41:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That is hardly what your attack on Israel suggests, but OK. This sort of passive aggressive thing isn’t helpful. If you are accusing me of supporting violence against Jews (utter nonsense), that is a serious accusation and you should make it. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/80 "2015-07-26T23:41:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Amedy Coulibaly, Chérif Kouachi, and Saïd Kouachi were born and raised in France. They were only converted to practicing Islam after they had already begun a life of crime. They are also among a tiny minority of the rioters who have actually embraced Islam. I’ll add “it doesn’t count if the Muslim was a convert, or had a pre-existing criminal record” to the list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=5)