# Europe's anti-Semitism crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/81 "2015-07-26T23:42:51Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > This sort of passive aggressive thing isn’t helpful. If you are accusing me of supporting violence against Jews (utter nonsense), that is a serious accusation and you should make it. Denial is support. Holocaust denial is the activity of Holocaust enthusiasts, the people who deny there is a problem with the way cops treat blacks in America are supporters of the cops’ behavior, and your insistence that everything is fine for Jews in France can only be read as support for the actual situation. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/82 "2015-07-26T23:45:02Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Denial is support. Holocaust denial is the activity of Holocaust enthusiasts, the people who deny there is a problem with the way cops treat blacks in America are supporters of the cops’ behavior, and your insistence that everything is fine for Jews in France can only be read as support for the actual situation. When did I say that everything is fine for the Jews in France? More ad hom attacks and strawmen from you. I have made two and only two points: 1. There are no pogroms/extreme violence against Jews in France comparable to what they faced in the 19th and 20th centuries 2. People are exploiting the violence that does exist as shady political cover for terrible policies in the Middle East ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/83 "2015-07-26T23:45:15Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > .,.,.,.,., I would like acts of antisemitism to stop being used as fuel for violence by the right. I am not sure what you mean by “the right” but as a 65 year old American I have never seen nor heard of antisemitic acts in any place that I have lived in for the past 65 years. Care to provide some links, articles or whatever to support your accusations-? (:- ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/84 "2015-07-26T23:56:12Z")
> [@tooldtocare](#): > > I am not sure what you mean by “the right” but as a 65 year old American I have never seen nor heard of antisemitic acts in any place that I have lived in for the past 65 years. > > Care to provide some links, articles or whatever to support your accusations-? > > (:- Here is a good example of what I am talking about. Check out the comments on this thread. These are American right-wingers using the spectre of antisemitism in Europe to justify Islamophobia, violence against Muslim countries, and support for right-wing factions in Israel. [http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/26/anti-semitism-in-europe-reaching-1930s-levels-thanks-to-radical-islam/](http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/26/anti-semitism-in-europe-reaching-1930s-levels-thanks-to-radical-islam/) Anders Breivik also trafficked in this kind of rhetoric. It’s very scary what it can lead to. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/85 "2015-07-27T00:01:15Z")
That’s been the leftist MO since Charlie Hebdo if not before – the reaction to an attack on Muslims is “the poor Muslims” and the reaction to an attack on Jews is “the poor Muslims.” Anti-Semitism is bad only to the extent that it might make someone think less of the Muslim who threw the brick. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/86 "2015-07-27T00:03:16Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > And they killed 12 people over it because their religion teaches an **insane honor culture where murdering someone for making you “angry” is not just acceptable but encouraged**. I’m not aware of any Islamic theologian saying you can murder someone who just makes you angry. As for “insane honor culture” is that supposed to be some stupid nod to “honor killings”. If so you’ll note they have nothing to do with Islam, predate it, and are carried out by non-Muslims as well. Also, is your opinion that Catholics in Northern Ireland who killed Protestants they caught spray painting “fuck the Pope” did so because of Catholic teachings or because they felt embattled and persecuted by Protestants. > [@](#): > > If you want to convince Israel to give up its existence as a Jewish state Err…when did gracefulfatsheba say anything about talking about eliminating Israel or making it no longer “a Jewish state”? > [@](#): > > Beating up Jews and firebombing synagogues is how you become more devoutly Muslim in the France of 2015. **It has become the central ritual of the religion.** Sort of the way kidnapping and murdering Christian children is a central ritual of Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/87 "2015-07-27T00:03:54Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Ah, a new one on the list – even if a Muslim kills a random Jew and says it’s because Islam commands him to do so, it doesn’t count .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,“Islam commands him”…,“to kill a random Jew” I have to ask you, where are you getting this crap-? just asking (:- :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/88 "2015-07-27T00:06:03Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Here is a good example of what I am talking about. Check out the comments on this thread. These are American right-wingers using the spectre of antisemitism in Europe to justify Islamophobia, violence against Muslim countries, and support for right-wing factions in Israel. > > [http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/26/anti-semitism-in-europe-reaching-1930s-levels-thanks-to-radical-islam/](http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/26/anti-semitism-in-europe-reaching-1930s-levels-thanks-to-radical-islam/) > > Anders Breivik also trafficked in this kind of rhetoric. It’s very scary what it can lead to. Criticism of Israel has been used by lots of people in the Middle East to justify terrorist attack on Jews. Based on your logic then we shouldn’t condemn anti-Muslim violence perpetrated by Jews. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/89 "2015-07-27T00:07:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Criticism of Israel has been used by lots of people in the Middle East to justify terrorist attack on Jews. > > Based on your logic then we shouldn’t condemn anti-Muslim violence perpetrated by Jews. No, because, we are not working in absolutes here. You seem to be saying I can’t criticize right-wingers who exploit antisemitism to justify horrible policies and also condemn antisemitic incidents at the same time. Yet I do. I will always condemn antisemitism, and those who use its existence to justify anti-Muslim hysteria. Yet I do challenge the factual claims of people who say that Europe is in the 1930s again. I would like to see more proof of those claims as what I have seen so far seems random and sporadic. ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/90 "2015-07-27T00:12:57Z")
Rachel Maddow is Jewish and a great reporter on MSNBC and my bet is; if you were to ask her about this alleged antisemitism she would tell you to f\_\_k off cause antisemitism does not exist in the USA (:- ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/91 "2015-07-27T00:12:58Z")
> [@tooldtocare](#): > > As an American please tell me what a Jewish quarter is? But if you do not know & you just used the term because it read well, then say so. > > must I google it instead-? > > just asking (:- Yes, you must Google it. But, here, free of charge: Have you heard of the French Quarter in New Orleans? Well, it’s like that, only Jewish. In Paris, that would be the part of the city known as the Marais. If you want to know more, yes, Google it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/92 "2015-07-27T00:13:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Kobal, as usual I agree with just about everything you said and find this thread fairly detestable and disagree with Lauder’s comments, but I’d strongly object to the idea that it is “a minority problem”. > > When 50% of all French adults believe that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than France(which is classic anti-semitism) then it can hardly be seen as just “a minority problem”. > > Granted, there are degrees of bigotry. People can believe most Jews are disloyal without supporting the burning of Synagogues for example. Well, there’s problem and problem I suppose. I mean, you won’t catch me denying that there’s an undercurrent of mild antisemitism (and racism) to French society as a whole. For instance, while they wouldn’t dream of beating up a rabbi, tagging a synagogue or even utter the slightest discourteous comment to any Jew ; in fact they’d likely give a piece of their mind to anybody who would in their presence ; but if you were a fly observing Sunday dinner in my family you might well catch an off-hand comment about knowing how These People are, you \*know, \*fantastic people and I won’t hear anything to the contrary but they do look after themselves knowwhatImean knowwhatImean. Same goes for Arabs or blacks (with different stereotypes obviously). And that’s all very middle-class/bourgeois French, I’m sorry to say. OTOH, profoundly distasteful as that shit is, I wouldn’t say it rises to the level of problem _per se_, since it doesn’t directly affect Jews or Arabs (though I suppose it indicates a likelihood of affecting them covertly/indirectly - but then it’s pretty hard to curb that). And \*some \*good can come out of it, since it’s pretty much the kind of crap that turned me into such a staunch antiracist :o. Assaults verbal or physical, defacement of property, people living in genuine fear for their well-being or possessions on the other hand : that’s what I’d put in the problem or crisis column. And on that front, contrary to what \*\*Haberdash \*\*says, I don’t reckon the State and the police are any slow to respond nor particularly swamped with the sheer number of incidents. TL;DR it’s bad, but I don’t believe it’s \*that \*bad. [QUOTE=Ibn Warraq] What a load of horseshit. Kobal and Ramira are obviously in better position to judge than I am, but AFAIK, the vast majority of Muslims prefer to speak French over Arabic and that’s even more true of second and third generation French Muslims. [/QUOTE] Yes ; although peppering one’s speech with a few words of Arabic has become somewhat trendy among youth (white or brown alike, Muslim or Whatevs, born of immigrant or of a family French since Charlemagne). > [@](#): > > Muslims in France are assimilated, they’re just not accepted. Ding ding ding ding ding ! We have a winnah ! [QUOTE=Johnathan Chance] Kobal2, it’s not your place to dismiss other posters or to tell them they can’t participate. No warning, but do it again anywhere in Great Debates or Elections and you’ll get one. [/QUOTE] So let me get this straight. \*\*Haberdash \*\*can spout any amount of baseless, incendiary and bigoted statements like “Muslims in France are obsessed with the physical destruction of Jews” all day and we don’t hear a peep from you - this in spite of the fact that there are flesh-and-blood French Muslims on the board who might could feel a little smidge offended I might add (I’m guessing from the way she writes that \*\*Ramira \*\*is one at least, and who knows among lurkers). I give his comments the consideration they’re due, and **I** get thumped immediately ? What the honest fuck, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/93 "2015-07-27T00:16:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not aware of any Islamic theologian saying you can murder someone who just makes you angry. Islam is as Islam does. > [@](#): > > As for “insane honor culture” is that supposed to be some stupid nod to “honor killings”. If so you’ll note they have nothing to do with Islam, predate it, and are carried out by non-Muslims as well. No, it’s a term that exists. It means cultures where males have to respond to any “insult” or “disrespect” with overwhelming violence. The presence of such cultures tracks murder rates fairly closely in the U.S. and elsewhere; the traditional culture of the American South is a non-Muslim example. > [@](#): > > Also, is your opinion that Catholics in Northern Ireland who killed Protestants they caught spray painting “fuck the Pope” did so because of Catholic teachings or because they felt embattled and persecuted by Protestants. Both sides in the Northern Irish conflict were in a cycle of retributive violence and had allegiances to various causes which were overlayed on their religious identities. I don’t see the comparison here – there’s no threat of the UVF coming along and killing your family when you’re a Muslim seeing a cartoon you don’t like. You’re trying to fit this into a paradigm of two-way communal violence when it’s unidirectional. French Jews aren’t killing French Muslims, but Muslims are killing Jews. You have to deal with this reality whether it fits with what you would like Muslims to be or not. > [@](#): > > Sort of the way kidnapping and murdering Christian children is a central ritual of Judaism. There are two crucial differences between anti-Semitism and criticism of Islam. 1. “Jews drink the blood of Christian children” isn’t true. “Muslims gain the admiration of their peers by killing Jews” is true. 2. “Jew” is a racial group and “Muslim” is a belief system. Saying that one cannot criticize Islam is like saying one cannot criticize communism or capitalism or homeopathy. The attempt to make it equivalent to racism is a false analogy. (Certainly one could criticize the belief system of Judaism, but none of the Muslims’ behavior is targeted at that; it’s all Jews the racial group, and a firebomb isn’t exactly a debate in any case). You can’t get around these two major factors when trying to bulldoze away all objection to the way Muslims behave with “you’re not allowed to notice that!” ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/94 "2015-07-27T00:18:31Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Yet I do. I will always condemn antisemitism When given the opportunity to do so in this thread, you have denied that anti-Semitism exists. > [@](#): > > and those who use its existence to justify anti-Muslim hysteria. And again, this is the best we can get out of a leftist – anti-Semitism is bad because it might make people think less of the Muslims engaging in it, and only for that reason and to that extent. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/95 "2015-07-27T00:18:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So let me get this straight. \*\*Haberdash \*\*can spout any amount of baseless, incendiary and bigoted statements like “Muslims in France are obsessed with the physical destruction of Jews” all day and we don’t hear a peep from you - this in spite of the fact that there are flesh-and-blood French Muslims on the board who might could feel a little smidge offended I might add (I’m guessing from the way she writes that \*\*Ramira \*\*is one at least, and who knows among lurkers). > I give his comments the consideration they’re due, and **I** get thumped immediately ? > > What the honest fuck, dude. Not to Junior Mod, but you might want to try ATMB if you really want to argue that issue. In any event, I’m sure the invalidity of **Haberdash** ’s bogus rhetorical tactics is blindingly apparent to just about everyone. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/96 "2015-07-27T00:24:04Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > When given the opportunity to do so in this thread, you have denied that anti-Semitism exists. Again, that is just silly. Of course antisemitism exists. But it does not exist on the scale that you claim it does in Europe. Read through the “pogrom” article on Wikipedia and look at the kind of horrific deathtolls that were involved in the old days. We are just not seeing that kind of stuff today. We are seeing young thugs spraypainting the side of synagogues and such, and one-off incidents of violence. These are serious, but there is a massive difference in urgency level. When I see people like the nuts on the Breitbart comment section trying to use this to justify anti-immigrant hysteria, or invading other countries, I need to speak up. Do you at least admit there is a difference in the scale of what happened in the 19th century or 1930s versus today? Or in your view are we in exactly the same times? ---
**Author:** ![tooldtocare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19adc/32.png) [@tooldtocare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tooldtocare)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/97 "2015-07-27T00:24:29Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Have you heard of the French Quarter in New Orleans? > Well, it’s like that, only Jewish. In Paris, that would be the part of the city known as the Marais. If you want to know more, yes, Google it. You are correct, if I truly want to know what the “Jewish Quarter” is I will have to google it myself because it is clear enough, you just used the term because it read nice while not having a clue what it really meant. two Quarter’s may buy you a cup of coffee in the USA but in France, not that sure, how about you-? just asking (:- ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/98 "2015-07-27T00:25:37Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/99 "2015-07-27T00:31:01Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Again, that is just silly. Of course antisemitism exists. But it does not exist on the scale that you claim it does in Europe. Read through the “pogrom” article on Wikipedia and look at the kind of horrific deathtolls that were involved in the old days. We are just not seeing that kind of stuff today. We are seeing young thugs spraypainting the side of synagogues and such, and one-off incidences of violence. These are serious, but there is a massive difference in urgency level. How many “one-off incidences” add up to it mattering? There were over 40 incidents of serious anti-Semitic violence in France in 2014. [This](http://www.jta.org/2014/07/22/news-opinion/world/amid-france-synagogue-attacks-support-for-jewish-self-defense-groups-on-the-rise) is what happened in Saracelles: > [@](#): > > Shortly before their synagogue became shrouded by tear gas and smoke, 100 Jews wielding baseball bats and clubs were singing the French national anthem in front of the synagogue’s heavy metal gate. > > They had gathered outside the main synagogue in this Paris suburb Sunday to defend it against a predominantly Arab mob of 200 men who had gathered nearby with sticks and stones, setting garbage cans aflame and chanting “Slaughter the Jews.” > > Unable to reach the Grand Synagogues of Sarcelles, some of the rioters smashed shop windows in this poor suburb where tens of thousands of Jews live amid many Muslims. They torched two cars and threw a firebomb at a nearby, smaller synagogue, which was only lightly damaged. > > It was the ninth synagogue attack in France since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge in Gaza two weeks ago. This sounds EXACTLY like what happened across Europe from the nineteenth century the 40s, and is exactly why mainstream news sources had no qualms about labeling it a “pogrom.” Can you imagine if something like the [Tulsa Riot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot) occurred in the U.S. in 2015? Can you imagine the reaction afterwards being “blacks have nothing to worry about” and “the only problem with this is people might exhibit Whitephobia if they find out about it”? This is what you’re doing right now. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/100 "2015-07-27T00:33:47Z")
> [@tooldtocare](#): > > You are correct, if I truly want to know what the “Jewish Quarter” is I will have to google it myself because it is clear enough, you just used the term because it read nice while not having a clue what it really meant. > > two Quarter’s may buy you a cup of coffee in the USA but in France, not that sure, how about you-? > > just asking (:- Maybe you think that post is perfectly comprehensible, but I haven’t the slightest clue what you are going on about. That’s fine; I won’t be responding to you any further. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=6)