# Europe's anti-Semitism crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/121 "2015-07-27T03:43:29Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I’ll add “it doesn’t count if the Muslim was a convert, or had a pre-existing criminal record” to the list. No post of mine has suggested that the Jews in France are not under threat. Your hatred of Islam leads you to say that Islam is responsible for those threats. You are wrong and all your spiteful one-liners does not change that fact. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/122 "2015-07-27T03:55:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My grandparents were 1st generation immigrants during the great depression. They assimilate into American culture during a time of great economic strife. This is not happening in France. And that is the problem. It’s not open for debate. If your grandparents were immigrants during the Great Depression, they were not treated the way that Muslim immigrants have been treated in France. The U.S. went through a brief period of persecuting immigrants just following WWI and there were, indeed, riots associated with them. By the 30s, the economy had been through ten years of recovery and by the time the Depression hit, immigrants had been permitted to assimilate. (It would be interesting to know from where they immigrated during the 1930s at a time when the U.S. had pretty well slammed the door shut on immigration.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/123 "2015-07-27T04:02:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > incendiary and bigoted statements like “Muslims in France are obsessed with the physical destruction of Jews” all day and we don’t hear a peep from you - this in spite of the fact that there are flesh-and-blood French Muslims on the board who might could feel a little smidge offended I might add (I’m guessing from the way she writes that \*\*Ramira \*\*is one at least, and who knows among lurkers). > I give his comments the consideration they’re due, and **I** get thumped immediately ? > > What the honest fuck, dude. You are perfectly free to refute all the nonsense that he posts. You are not free to insult him or make other personal remarks in an attempt to silence him. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/124 "2015-07-27T04:29:56Z")
So you can insult or cast aspersions at entire swathes of people, just not individual ones. Got it. Solid rule :). Besides, I didn’t insult him \*or \*make personal remarks. I simply dismissed him with as much condescension as I could muster at the time. Refuting nonsense gives it validity. There’s a point beyond which an eyeroll is the only rational response. I think the debate is worth having in general, but it’s difficult to discuss anything when somebody in the room is doing the rhetorical equivalent of flinging his own poop at the top of his lungs, that’s all. That metaphor is a work in progress, btw :o. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/125 "2015-07-27T04:56:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Which question is that that you would like answered first? > > I already answered the question you as to whether or not Jews everywhere in the World are automatically considered citizens of Israel > > Was there another question you had? > > If so, please quote it. Also, even if thgey are Israeli, so what? I’m Israeli myself, and last year I spent a wonderful week in Paris with my family. If a bunch of locals had grabbed us and given us a good thrashing while strolling through the Jardin du Luxembourg, would they have been justified? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/126 "2015-07-27T05:06:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Also, even if thgey are Israeli, so what? I’m Israeli myself, and last year I spent a wonderful week in Paris with my family. If a bunch of locals had grabbed us and given us a good thrashing while strolling through the Jardin du Luxembourg, would they have been justified? Of course not. As to his posts and motivations I don’t think I can say more in this forum and won’t be responding to anymore of his posts. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/127 "2015-07-27T05:26:44Z")
I must be missing something here. Does **Haberdash** have some douchebag reputation that precedes him? Because I’m having a hard time deciphering what’s so offensive about, “Jews are fleeing France due to anti-Semitic violence and I think it’s fucking outrageous!” I’m paraphrasing. Comparing 2015 to 1933 may be hyperbole, but will no one give the guy a break when he’s complaining about racist attacks and people fleeing their homes? I have no idea what it’s like to be attacked for one’s faith. But I imagine that if Baptists in my town started attacking Episcopalians for being the back door to the Catholic Church, (and don’t act like you don’t say that shit, Baptists, cuz I know you do!), I would hope people would condemn the attacks without reservation. (Mercifully, the Baptists are too busy with their full immersion baptism nonsense to cause too much trouble.) I am all for defending France, (but not the Maginot Line; bad idea), but there appears to be something amiss if Jews feel unsafe from street rioters. Is that a terribly controversial position? I do not understand where the vitriol is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/128 "2015-07-27T05:38:19Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I must be missing something here. Does **Haberdash** have some douchebag reputation that precedes him? Because I’m having a hard time deciphering what’s so offensive about, “Jews are fleeing France due to anti-Semitic violence and I think it’s fucking outrageous!” I’m paraphrasing. > > Comparing 2015 to 1933 may be hyperbole, but will no one give the guy a break when he’s complaining about racist attacks and people fleeing their homes? I have no idea what it’s like to be attacked for one’s faith. But I imagine that if Baptists in my town started attacking Episcopalians for being the back door to the Catholic Church, (and don’t act like you don’t say that shit, Baptists, cuz I know you do!), I would hope people would condemn the attacks without reservation. (Mercifully, the Baptists are too busy with their full immersion baptism nonsense to cause too much trouble.) > > I am all for defending France, (but not the Maginot Line; bad idea), but there appears to be something amiss if Jews feel unsafe from street rioters. Is that a terribly controversial position? > > I do not understand where the vitriol is coming from. Well, for starters aside from the fact that he has grossly exaggerated a very real problem, he has made numerous comments about Muslims that had they been made about Jews would have resulted in warnings for hate speech if not an instaban. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/129 "2015-07-27T05:42:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Did they happen to be white and some description of Christian, by any chance ? :rolleyes: Hey, its not open for debate! Pay attention! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/130 "2015-07-27T06:02:28Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > In any event, I’m sure the invalidity of **Haberdash** ’s bogus rhetorical tactics is blindingly apparent to just about everyone. > [@Grotonian](#): > > I must be missing something here. Does **Haberdash** have some douchebag reputation that precedes him? Because I’m having a hard time deciphering what’s so offensive about, “Jews are fleeing France due to anti-Semitic violence and I think it’s fucking outrageous!” I’m paraphrasing. **El Kabong**? A word in my office, please ? 🙂 > [@elucidator](#): > > Hey, its not open for debate! Pay attention! OK, that one sailed right past me. Reference to pop-culture or reference to something \*\*Magiver \*\*posted before ? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/131 "2015-07-27T06:04:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My grandparents were 1st generation immigrants during the great depression. They assimilate into American culture during a time of great economic strife. This is not happening in France. And that is the problem. It’s not open for debate. What does your grandparents ability to assimilate into America have to do with a discussion of France? I don’t mean that BTW as a way to belittle or diminish them but I think, and mean no offense to any Frenchmen reading this, that the U.S. Does a better job at assimilating immigrants than they do. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/132 "2015-07-27T07:54:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your post said that what the Jews were suffering in France was not as bad as what the Israelis were doing in Israel. That sort of comparison of different peoples doing different things is pointless. Nothing passive aggressive about it. Your post was just dumb. Actually, I specifically brought Israeli’s actions into the discussion because antisemitic incidents in Europe are often used as fuel to defend and justify Israel’s actions. Again, spend some time on a right-wing American conservative website and you’ll see tons of people trying to use antisemitism in Europe as an excuse to defend Israel’s aggressive military actions. I found your post “dumb” and defamatory for implying I support violence (I absolutely do not). Not much different than what the Hat Man is putting out there. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/133 "2015-07-27T10:37:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t mean that BTW as a way to belittle or diminish them but I think, and mean no offense to any Frenchmen reading this, that the U.S. Does a better job at assimilating immigrants than they do. Tell that to my 7th-generation Han-American friends who still get told to get back on the boat. On the other hand, I don’t think anybody has claimed that Nicolas Sarkozy, Jean Reno or Manuel Valle aren’t assimilated. The problem is always greater with those who look or sound different from the assumed “norm”, there as well as here. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/134 "2015-07-27T11:17:43Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I must be missing something here. Does **Haberdash** have some douchebag reputation that precedes him? Because I’m having a hard time deciphering what’s so offensive about, “Jews are fleeing France due to anti-Semitic violence and I think it’s fucking outrageous!” I’m paraphrasing. > > […] > > I do not understand where the vitriol is coming from. The vitriol comes from his statements about murderous Muslims. If he had written “Jews” or “Blacks” in his sentences instead of “Muslims” I’m pretty sure you (and plenty of others) would have noticed immediately what the issue was. \*“I think that Muslims’ obsession with battering Jews…” “Muslims of france are obsessed with the physical destruction of Jews” “Algerian Muslims despise Jews, have slaughtered them on numerous occasions, and are now bringing their religion to France” “the Algerian Muslims didn’t succeed in killing all of the Algerian Jews” “A Nazi salute is the popular gesture among Muslim youths across France” “The poor, poor Muslims. They might skin their knuckles punching a Jewish child in the face” “the narcissistic mind of Muslims who never forget an insult” “contemporary Islam adopting “death to the Jews” as the response to any and every problem” “their religion teaches an insane honor culture where murdering someone for making you “angry” is not just acceptable but encouraged” “Beating up Jews and firebombing synagogues is how you become more devoutly Muslim in the France of 2015. It has become the central ritual of the religion” “The presence of such cultures tracks murder rates fairly closely in the U.S. and elsewhere”\* If you somehow managed to read through his posts without noticing that there was a big issue in his discourse, maybe you should rethink what kind of discourse you find acceptable wrt Muslims and compare it with the kind of discourse you would tolerate wrt another group. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/135 "2015-07-27T12:16:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > **El Kabong**? A word in my office, please ? 🙂 Hey, I hedged! I said ‘just about everyone’. :o ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/136 "2015-07-27T12:36:04Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > If he had written “Jews” or “Blacks” in his sentences instead of “Muslims” I’m pretty sure you (and plenty of others) would have noticed immediately what the issue was. And if Muslims in France behaved like Jews or blacks do, those statements wouldn’t be true! Imagine that. If I post “most cars run on gasoline” and you reply “hey, if you change ‘gasoline’ to ‘carrot juice’ your statement looks pretty dumb” then you’re accomplishing about as much as you are with this iteration of “what if you said something that you didn’t say?” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/137 "2015-07-27T13:04:55Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Out of curiosity Haberdash, what is your solution the problems you claim to identify? If you were to accurately reveal it (an end to Muslim immigration, perhaps?), I think we would all learn a lot more about your underlying motives. You’re looking at it: yelling at ‘leftists’ on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/138 "2015-07-27T14:18:54Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I’m having a hard time deciphering what’s so offensive about, “Jews are fleeing France due to anti-Semitic violence and I think it’s fucking outrageous!” Two things left-wingers don’t like in 2015: Jews, and saying anything negative about Muslims. Since any observer looking at the plain facts sees that there is much deficient in Islam, the only thing they can do is repeatedly announce that criticism, discussion, or observation of Islam (“Islamophobia” is their word for it) is not allowed. The rest of us can choose to abide by these decrees, or not. For people like the Jews of France, abiding by them means death, but the left has made it clear that there is no number of dead Jews that they will acknowledge as a problem – or a reality – if it means admitting that Islam is anything less than perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/139 "2015-07-27T14:24:07Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Out of curiosity Haberdash, what is your solution the problems you claim to identify? If you were to accurately reveal it (an end to Muslim immigration, perhaps?), I think we would all learn a lot more about your underlying motives. The first step in solving any problem is to accurately identify it. This means admitting that Islam has tremendous flaws – cutting out the bullshit about how nothing a Muslim does ever counts, and noticing that violent, racist rhetoric is not “extreme” in any way but is common within the largest, most ordinary Muslim institutions. It means getting away from parsing what is or is not “terrorism” and saying that any imposition of Islam by force, including the power of the government, is not permissible. France’s larger problem isn’t immigration per se, it’s that they settle people in communities where everyone just sist around all day fuming about the Jews and the Westerners. The reason this problem is far less of an issue in the U.S. is that people here, Muslims included, go to fucking work and worry about their families instead of being paid by the government to stay home and map out routes to the local synagogues all day for their arsonist friends. There needs to be a twofold approach of combatting the ideology and reducing the benefits so that Paris stops becoming an outpost of the Middle East. The people who want to be a part of the economy should be allowed to come over; the people who want to take welfare and then complain about the injustice of it all shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/140 "2015-07-27T14:50:11Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Actually, I specifically brought Israeli’s actions into the discussion because antisemitic incidents in Europe are often used as fuel to defend and justify Israel’s actions. > > Again, spend some time on a right-wing American conservative website and you’ll see tons of people trying to use antisemitism in Europe as an excuse to defend Israel’s aggressive military actions. I found your post “dumb” and defamatory for implying I support violence (I absolutely do not). Not much different than what the Hat Man is putting out there. You keep being offered the opportunity to say “anti-Semitism is wrong,” period, and you keep going out of your way to say “it’s wrong only because it might make someone sympathetic to Israel or suspicious of Muslims.” Is there a reason for this, or are you just happy to be Exhibit A for the left’s problem with Jews? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=8)