# Europe's anti-Semitism crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/141 "2015-07-27T15:12:04Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The first step in solving any problem is to accurately identify it. This means admitting that Islam has tremendous flaws – cutting out the bullshit about how nothing a Muslim does ever counts, and noticing that violent, racist rhetoric is not “extreme” in any way but is common within the largest, most ordinary Muslim institutions. It means getting away from parsing what is or is not “terrorism” and saying that any imposition of Islam by force, including the power of the government, is not permissible. > > France’s larger problem isn’t immigration per se, it’s that they settle people in communities where everyone just sist around all day fuming about the Jews and the Westerners. The reason this problem is far less of an issue in the U.S. is that people here, Muslims included, go to fucking work and worry about their families instead of being paid by the government to stay home and map out routes to the local synagogues all day for their arsonist friends. There needs to be a twofold approach of combatting the ideology and reducing the benefits so that Paris stops becoming an outpost of the Middle East. The people who want to be a part of the economy should be allowed to come over; the people who want to take welfare and then complain about the injustice of it all shouldn’t. Got it, so poor people are also the problem, not just the Evil Muslims. If we can eradicate those wretched welfare queens and rabid Muslims, we’ll be okay. (How do you like it when other people make up the same strawmen that you constantly set up for others?) ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/142 "2015-07-27T15:21:40Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > You keep being offered the opportunity to say “anti-Semitism is wrong,” period, and you keep going out of your way to say “it’s wrong only because it might make someone sympathetic to Israel or suspicious of Muslims.” Is there a reason for this, or are you just happy to be Exhibit A for the left’s problem with Jews? Antisemitism is wrong for the same reason that anti-black or anti-gypsy bigotry is wrong. It’s oppressive, causes discrimination, intimidation, the threat of violence, etc. It has nothing to do with Muslims looking bad, that is just another strawman you set up that you would rather be arguing against. The problem is when right-wing fanatics use antisemitic incidents in Europe to justify support for the rightist factions in Israel, or as a way to promote discrimination against Muslims. Again, this happens constantly. The point I am making is like liberal criticism of Donald Trump when he tried to exploit the recent murder in California to attack and smear all Mexican immigrants. If I criticize Trump for doing so, does that mean I am defending the murdering immigrant and attacking his victim? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/143 "2015-07-27T15:49:37Z")
Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/144 "2015-07-27T17:52:37Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Got it, so poor people are also the problem, not just the Evil Muslims. If we can eradicate those wretched welfare queens and rabid Muslims, we’ll be okay. And it’s easy to eradicate them, you just have to read people’s minds when they apply for visas. And, presumably, the minds of their future children should they plan on having any. Shouldn’t be so fucking difficult, should it, France ?! GET TO IT, BITCH ! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/145 "2015-07-27T20:23:12Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > Actually, I specifically brought Israeli’s actions into the discussion because antisemitic incidents in Europe are often used as fuel to defend and justify Israel’s actions. > > Again, spend some time on a right-wing American conservative website and you’ll see tons of people trying to use antisemitism in Europe as an excuse to defend Israel’s aggressive military actions. I don’t spend time on “a right-wing American conservative website” (redundant much?), but I haven’t seen media pundits, politicians, or for that matter Dopers trying to justify “aggressive military actions” or any controversial Israeli policy whatsoever on the grounds of anti-Semitic violence in Europe. If such justifications are common, it should be easy for you to link to examples. But I suspect this is just as bogus a construct as “you can’t criticize Israel without being labeled an anti-Semite”. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/146 "2015-07-27T20:35:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And it’s easy to eradicate them, you just have to read people’s minds when they apply for visas. And, presumably, the minds of their future children should they plan on having any. Shouldn’t be so fucking difficult, should it, France ?! GET TO IT, BITCH ! The problem with you self-appointing as the nationalist defender of how perfect everything in France is, among others, is that “Muslims attacking Jews” is a part of how France is, and you end up defending it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/147 "2015-07-27T21:29:52Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > The problem with you self-appointing as the nationalist defender of how perfect everything in France is, among others, is that “Muslims attacking Jews” is a part of how France is, and you end up defending it. You know, people might possibly be inclined to engage with you more if you didn’t so insist on disingenuously misconstruing everything they say. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/148 "2015-07-27T21:40:36Z")
Some Jews will stay in France, at least for as long as the government remains interested enough to send the necessary soldiers to guard them: > **[The Jews Who Are Determined to Stay in France](https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-jews-who-are-determined-to-stay-in-france)** > > After the murderous siege of a kosher supermarket and many other anti-Semitic flashpoints, Jews were reported to be leaving France en masse. Others are resolute about staying put. ---
**Author:** ![dudonarrival](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@dudonarrival](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dudonarrival)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/149 "2015-07-27T22:03:57Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Considering that Jews are 40 times as likely as Muslims to be the victims of racist violence in France, you’re right, it’s not remotely comparable. A man complained that he had gone to a bar and had been beaten up and thrown out which he thought was cruel and unjust, his listeners sympathised. A man complained that he had gone into ten bars and been beaten up and thrown out of all of them which he thought was cruel and unjust his listeners turned from him. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/150 "2015-07-27T22:21:51Z")
> [@dudonarrival](#): > > A man complained that he had gone to a bar and had been beaten up and thrown out which he thought was cruel and unjust, his listeners sympathised. > > A man complained that he had gone into ten bars and been beaten up and thrown out of all of them which he thought was cruel and unjust his listeners turned from him. I don’t understand. Why did they turn from him? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/151 "2015-07-27T23:13:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Did they happen to be white and some description of Christian, by any chance ? :rolleyes: Yes. They learned to speak the language and integrate into American society. They expected their children to do their best in school. Oh, and somehow managed not to attack Jews or anyone else in the process. If you’re under some delusion that early 20th Century America was thrilled with their arrival then keep working on that revisionist history book. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/152 "2015-07-27T23:18:36Z")
Oh, I’m sure that like all French chauvinists, he’s an expert on everything wrong with the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/153 "2015-07-27T23:37:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes. They learned to speak the language and integrate into American society. They expected their children to do their best in school. Oh, and somehow managed not to attack Jews or anyone else in the process. > > If you’re under some delusion that early 20th Century America was thrilled with their arrival then keep working on that revisionist history book. Do people today question whether you’re really American (or can even be), or ask where you’re \*really \*from, or tell you to go back where you came from ? Just from looking at you ? Do people turn you away from prospective jobs or lodgings at the sight of your name on the application form ? Do people on the telly bloviate about your religion being “troublesome” or “shameless” ? Is there an entire political party the platform of which is to deport you “back to your country”, even though you’re in your bloody country ? No ? Then in what \*possible \*way is your life experience or that of your grandparents in any way, shape or form comparable to that of a French-born, third-generation Algerian immigrant kid ? [QUOTE=Haberdash] Oh, I’m sure that like all French chauvinists, he’s an expert on everything wrong with the U.S. [/QUOTE] Damn you, that’s one irony meter I’m never getting back. Fool thing blew up AND imploded at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/154 "2015-07-28T00:03:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes. They learned to speak the language and integrate into American society. They expected their children to do their best in school. Oh, and somehow managed not to attack Jews or anyone else in the process. > > If you’re under some delusion that early 20th Century America was thrilled with their arrival then keep working on that revisionist history book. Since you ducked my question, I will note that there are over 4.75 million Muslims in France and reports have shown up to a couple thousand of them, over all, have been involved in the riots, so even if we generously claim that nearly 5,000 Muslims have rioted, (for which there is no evidence), we still have barely 1/10th of one percent involved in such actions. I’m sorry, but acting as though a group is being a problem when 99.9% of them are not engaged in the problem is a bit odd. European immigrants were never a serious threat to Jews in the U.S. Our culture encouraged (white) immigrants to join the many riots between 1917 and 1919 and into the 1920s against blacks moving out of the South. I presume that your family did not join them–just like 99.9% of their fellow immigrants did not join them. The attacks on Jews is a serious problem. The problem does not become more serious and better solutions to the problem are not provided by making hate-filled and unrealistic claims about Muslims when the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not engaged in those issues and, as we saw in 2005 and 2006, there are Muslims actively working to prevent those actions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/155 "2015-07-28T01:36:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Do people today question whether you’re really American (or can even be), or ask where you’re \*really \*from, or tell you to go back where you came from ? Just from looking at you ? Do people turn you away from prospective jobs or lodgings at the sight of your name on the application form ? Do people on the telly bloviate about your religion being “troublesome” or “shameless” ? Is there an entire political party the platform of which is to deport you “back to your country”, even though you’re in your bloody country ? > > No ? Then in what \*possible \*way is your life experience or that of your grandparents in any way, shape or form comparable to that of a French-born, third-generation Algerian immigrant kid ? > > Damn you, that’s one irony meter I’m never getting back. Fool thing blew up AND imploded at the same time. Uh dude, my grandparents were from [Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment)and [Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism). So yes, people looked at them and their foreign language/names and shunned them from jobs. The Great Depression followed WW-I and was not a picnic. The difference, and stay with me here, is that they assimilated into American culture. there were no 3rd generation immigrant children or even 2nd generation. My parents were fully assimilated. You’re irony meter must have been next to the ignorance meter. You have no clue what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/156 "2015-07-28T02:04:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The attacks on Jews is a serious problem. The problem does not become more serious and better solutions to the problem are not provided by making hate-filled and unrealistic claims about Muslims when the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not engaged in those issues and, as we saw in 2005 and 2006, there are Muslims actively working to prevent those actions. The only thing hate filled about the situation is the group making the attacks. That there are Muslims trying to stop the attacks is lovely but they’re doing it to counter the Muslims making the attacks. So your argument falls on it’s own sword. As I stated above, it doesn’t matter what ratio you pick the result is the same. You act as if all the Mosques in France and Europe are raising fuzzy bunnies and blueberry pie. That’s nothing but blind political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/157 "2015-07-28T02:11:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Since you ducked my question, I will note that there are over 4.75 million Muslims in France and reports have shown up to a couple thousand of them, over all, have been involved in the riots, so even if we generously claim that nearly 5,000 Muslims have rioted, (for which there is no evidence), we still have barely 1/10th of one percent involved in such actions. I’m sorry, but acting as though a group is being a problem when 99.9% of them are not engaged in the problem is a bit odd. [French PM predicts 10,000 Eruopeans will join ISIS](http://www.rt.com/news/238845-europe-islamist-number-grow/). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/158 "2015-07-28T02:18:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [French PM predicts 10,000 Eruopeans will join ISIS](http://www.rt.com/news/238845-europe-islamist-number-grow/). Which would be 1/5 of one percent. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/159 "2015-07-28T02:22:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …That there are Muslims trying to stop the attacks is lovely but they’re doing it to counter the Muslims making the attacks… Uh, yeah. Definitely. Good catch. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/160 "2015-07-28T02:22:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Which would be 1/5 of one percent. And that’s assuming that all 10,000 come from France. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=9)