# Europe's anti-Semitism crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130 "2015-07-25T02:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/161 "2015-07-28T02:34:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [French PM predicts 10,000 Eruopeans will join ISIS](http://www.rt.com/news/238845-europe-islamist-number-grow/). IF he is right, (big IF), it is a lot more likely that they will do so because of the way that they have been treated as immigrants over the last few years. In fact, that is pretty much the profile of the Europeans who have been heading to Syria to join ISIS over the last couple of years: unemployed teens and young adults who have no particular interest in Islam being lured to the country with promises of respect and a stable lifestyle organized by the religion instead of being treated as foreigners in the land of their birth. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/162 "2015-07-28T02:47:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The only thing hate filled about the situation is the group making the attacks. That there are Muslims trying to stop the attacks is lovely but they’re doing it to counter the Muslims making the attacks. So your argument falls on it’s own sword. As I stated above, it doesn’t matter what ratio you pick the result is the same. You act as if all the Mosques in France and Europe are raising fuzzy bunnies and blueberry pie. That’s nothing but blind political correctness. So, if Muslims are making attacks, Islam is evil, but if other Muslims are opposing attacks, it is because Islam is evil. I would say that my observation about hatred is accurate. > [@Magiver](#): > > Uh dude, my grandparents were from [Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment)and [Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism). So yes, people looked at them and their foreign language/names and shunned them from jobs. The Great Depression followed WW-I and was not a picnic. The difference, and stay with me here, is that they assimilated into American culture. there were no 3rd generation immigrant children or even 2nd generation. My parents were fully assimilated. > > You’re irony meter must have been next to the ignorance meter. You have no clue what you’re talking about. The gates of immigration were slammed shut between 1922 and 1924, so it is more likely that rather than showing up in poverty in the midst of the Depression, they actually arrived during the 1920s, established themselves with jobs, then found themselves swept into the Depression along with everyone else instead of being isolated into _banlieues_ for two and three generations the way that the currently rioting kids have been. Depending on where they landed, they may or may not have actually suffered any significant discrimination. While there was a burst of anti-German hostility between 1917 and 1919, it died down pretty quickly. The Italian side could have faced more hostility through the 1920s, but there were plenty of jobs available for them to get a toe-hold before the Depression crashed on them. Whatever they experienced, it is not the same as what the Algerian kids in France faced. There was always the black community to suffer the brunt of the greater hostility. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/163 "2015-07-28T02:51:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I don’t spend time on “a right-wing American conservative website” (redundant much?), but I haven’t seen media pundits, politicians, or for that matter Dopers trying to justify “aggressive military actions” or any controversial Israeli policy whatsoever on the grounds of anti-Semitic violence in Europe. > > If such justifications are common, it should be easy for you to link to examples. But I suspect this is just as bogus a construct as “you can’t criticize Israel without being labeled an anti-Semite”. Calling out redundant use of adjectives? Wow, that was a really epic burn, and it certainly contributed to the discussion. Kudos for calling me out on that infraction. Here is a good example of exactly what I’m talking about: > **[Evangelical Zionism rising, amidst anti-Semitism and threats to Israel, says...](https://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/While-threats-to-Israel-surge-so-does-Christian-Zionism-says-CUFIs-Hagee-380145)** > > “Christians of America support Israel right now in a more aggressive mood than at any time in my lifetime,” Pastor John Hagee, national chairman of Christians United for Israel says. The behavior of the Christian fundies described in this article is exactly what I’m talking about. They consciously step up support for Israel’s disastrous security policies and reference the climate of antisemitism in Europe as a reason. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/164 "2015-07-28T03:00:13Z")
For fundamentalists of the apocalyptic dementia, the Jews must return to Israel before the End Times can really start to rock. So, anything that might move Jews to emigrate to Israel is doing the Lord’s work. 'Cause Jesus is getting impatient, standing around, tapping his foot, checking the sundial… ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/165 "2015-07-28T03:04:40Z")
> [@gracefulfatsheba](#): > > They consciously step up support for Israel’s disastrous security policies and reference the climate of antisemitism in Europe as a reason. I believe this was what I wanted to talk about in the first post before the thread turned into a parade of board leftists showing up to deny that anti-Semitism exists. Here is the problem: If you want to convince Israel to give up its existence, you will need to convince Jews that they do not need a haven for their physical safety. Every time a pack of Muslims beats a Jew in France for walking down the street, and most especially, every time the self-proclaimed “anti-racist progressives” respond to this by denying it happened or blaming the victim or rewarding the Muslim with paeans to their great and wonderful religion, Jews become more an more convinced that a haven for their physical safety is needed. The reason that people support Israel’s policies when European anti-Semitism rises is not just because of the obvious pressure to find physical safety from the attacks themselves, it’s also because the reaction makes it clear that, if the progressives win the next election, Jews will simply be thrown to the Muslims for extermination. Right now, the situation for Jews in Europe is worse than it has been at any time since 1946. The chance that you are going to to convince any population on Earth to prioritize anything over their own lives is nil. If you want Jews to listen to you about Israel, you need to stop supporting their killers. When Jews are satisfied that they can live in Paris and Berlin and London without being marked for destruction, they will be more likely to give up the Israeli security apparatus. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/166 "2015-07-28T03:19:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > IF he is right, (big IF), it is a lot more likely that they will do so because of the way that they have been treated as immigrants over the last few years. In fact, that is pretty much the profile of the Europeans who have been heading to Syria to join ISIS over the last couple of years: unemployed teens and young adults who have no particular interest in Islam being lured to the country with promises of respect and a stable lifestyle organized by the religion instead of being treated as foreigners in the land of their birth. uh huh. Are you listening to yourself? They’re going to Syria to join ISIS. Seriously? They could create chaos anywhere without the religious bullshit that comes with ISIS. They’re running around cutting off heads and setting people on fire and it’s driven by Islam. Nobody in Europe is mistreating immigrants any worse than what immigrants suffered in the US so your reasons for it don’t make sense. You’re making excuses. It doesn’t matter what percentage you pull from the dark side of the moon, the end result is that the radical end of the Islamic spectrum is extremely violent. Unless the religion is altered this will not change. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/167 "2015-07-28T03:19:56Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > …it’s also because the reaction makes it clear that, if the progressives win the next election, Jews will simply be thrown to the Muslims for extermination… See, if you would just stick to sensible, moderate views like this, things would go a lot easier for you around here. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/168 "2015-07-28T03:26:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > For fundamentalists of the apocalyptic dementia, the Jews must return to Israel before the End Times can really start to rock. So, anything that might move Jews to emigrate to Israel is doing the Lord’s work. > > 'Cause Jesus is getting impatient, standing around, tapping his foot, checking the sundial… I seriously doubt French Jews are consulting the elucidator “fun with jesus forum tour” as the basis for their vacation plans. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/169 "2015-07-28T04:04:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Uh dude, my grandparents were from [Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-German_sentiment)and [Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism). So yes, people looked at them and their foreign language/names and shunned them from jobs. The Great Depression followed WW-I and was not a picnic. The difference, and stay with me here, is that they assimilated into American culture. there were no 3rd generation immigrant children or even 2nd generation. My parents were fully assimilated. I didn’t ask if your grandparents were given funny looks. I asked if you, today, are still getting funny looks. Because that’s the salient point. And 3rd generation immigrant doesn’t mean “is still an immigrant”, just that the kid’s grandparents were. The kids who go around painting swastikas in Jewish cemeteries or taking selfies of themselves throwing _la quenelle_ in front of the local synagogue are not immigrants (in fact a large number of them are not even descendants of immigrants…). Immigrants keep their heads down. They knew they would have to keep their heads down before they applied for a visa. Their kids on the other hand never chose anything. I know it’s hard to get this into your skull (lord knows we’ve told you this many, many times already), but these kids are **French**. Assimilated in every way and by any metric you’d care to put forward. They speak French (often exclusively), went to French schools, eat at French McDonald’s which is exactly the same as any McDonald’s anywhere on the planet except you can have a beer instead of a Coke and mayonnaise instead of ketchup but you really shouldn’t, watch French TV, work when they can find a job… they’re not alien. Shit, most of them aren’t even Muslim any more, or at best in a Christmas-Mass-and-weddings kind of way. _That’s the whole point and problem_. That they’re not alien at all besides a skin colour and a funny last name, but the “real” French still treat them like they were fresh off the boat. And that boat went through a timewarp in the 1960s. So they’re kind of pissed about that. You would be, too. And, being pissed at the world in general, they’re ripe targets for any number of exploitative assholes, like pissed off young men have been from Cain onwards. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/170 "2015-07-28T04:38:56Z")
I guess insisting that there are no Muslims in France is as good way to deny France’s problem with Muslims attacking Jews as any of the others that have been tried. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/171 "2015-07-28T04:40:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I know it’s hard to get this into your skull (lord knows we’ve told you this many, many times already), but these kids are **French**. Assimilated in every way and by any metric you’d care to put forward. They speak French (often exclusively), went to French schools, eat at French McDonald’s which is exactly the same as any McDonald’s anywhere on the planet except you can have a beer instead of a Coke and mayonnaise instead of ketchup but you really shouldn’t, watch French TV, work when they can find a job… they’re not alien. Shit, most of them aren’t even Muslim any more, or at best in a Christmas-Mass-and-weddings kind of way. _That’s the whole point and problem_. That they’re not alien at all besides a skin colour and a funny last name, but the “real” French still treat them like they were fresh off the boat. And that boat went through a timewarp in the 1960s. > > So they’re kind of pissed about that. You would be, too. And, being pissed at the world in general, they’re ripe targets for any number of exploitative assholes, like pissed off young men have been from Cain onwards. So let me see if I understand you correctly. These kids are mistreated by the “real” French. So they get pissed. And then they go and beat up/kill Jews. Amazing logic there. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/172 "2015-07-28T04:41:18Z")
You’re boring, **Hab**. > [@Terr](#): > > So let me see if I understand you correctly. These kids are mistreated by the “real” French. So they get pissed. And then they go and beat up/kill Jews. > > Amazing logic there. Note that I never accused violent antisemites of being bright thinkers ;). But let me put it this way : when KKK numbskulls blame all of their various misfortunes, notably their economic station in life, on Jews and negroes, are they being logical ? Prejudice and logic are in different rooms, they don’t speak with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/173 "2015-07-28T04:44:44Z")
It looks like the tactics of this thread are spreading to the French police. > **[Public anger after gang beat up French sunbather for wearing a bikini](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/public-anger-after-gang-beat-up-french-sunbather-for-wearing-a-bikini-in-reims-park-10417103.html)** > > Authorities have not identified the attackers but most commentators have assumed that they were Muslims > [@](#): > > It is not yet clear whether their unnamed 21-year-old victim was of French or north African origin. She was sunbathing with two friends in the Parc Léo Lagrange in Reims on Wednesday when one of the women verbally abused her for “immorally” exposing so much flesh in a public place. When she shouted back, the other girls and young women crowded around and slapped and punched her, police said. Passers-by intervened, and the victim was badly bruised rather than seriously hurt. > > Police told L’Union newspaper that the victim was not able to say whether or not her assailants were motivated by “religious opinions”. If we just refuse to say that the people going around beating up women for “showing skin” are Muslims, that will make the problem go away! Good job, guys! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/174 "2015-07-28T04:46:09Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Here is the problem: If you want to convince Israel to give up its existence, Bullshit. Either point us to an example of him arguing for Israel “giv[ing] up it’s existence” or perhaps you might want to apologize for smearing him. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/175 "2015-07-28T04:47:13Z")
And this has to do with antisemitism… how ? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/176 "2015-07-28T04:48:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Note that I never accused violent antisemites of being bright thinkers ;). But let me put it this way : when KKK numbskulls blame all of their various misfortunes, notably their economic station in life, on Jews and negroes, are they being logical ? Prejudice and logic are in different rooms, they don’t speak with each other. I don’t see any indication that the anti-Semitic “kids” you’re talking about that are mistreated by the “real French” are blaming their misfortunes on Jews. Can you point me to some source? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/177 "2015-07-28T05:02:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t see any indication that the anti-Semitic “kids” you’re talking about that are mistreated by the “real French” are blaming their misfortunes on Jews. Can you point me to some source? Ain’t you know that Them Jews control everything and everyone, 'specially all the money ? :rolleyes:. That’s basically Dieudonné’s argument, BTW. His position, far as I can ascertain (I’m not exactly glued to the man’s lips) is that a) Jewish financiers and moneylenders were involved in the black slave trade back in the day (notably the construction and insurance of the boats) therefore b) they’re responsible for enabling slavery which means c) they’re to blame for it, period which d) segues into them being responsible for colonialism too because somethingsomethinghandwavehandwave which e) is the root of the current statu quo. Therefore and ipso facto, when Khader gets beat up by agent Dupont, it’s really because of Them Jews. Then they cleverly covered their tracks by marching themselves into gas chambers to look like they’re really victims and also so now people can’t talk about these things in public without being labelled antisemites, you see. They’re fiendishly clever like that, Them Jews. No, it doesn’t make any sense. I am aware. But, again, we’re not dealing with rocket surgeons here. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/178 "2015-07-28T06:42:33Z")
Any student of Jewish history will tell you that antisemitism isn’t some randomly manifesting evil, but rather the result (or side effect) of various political, social, cultural and economic issues. That goes without saying. Doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem that needs to be solved, though. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/179 "2015-07-28T07:31:51Z")
I’ve heard that a significant number of young Israelis and European Jews have moved to Berlin. Supposedly, there is less antisemitism there than anywhere else in Europe. Not sure how much of it is due to the lower cost of living (Milky is cheaper there!) or political reasons (it’s tough to be left wing in Israel right now). I’ve never been to Berlin, and I haven’t been back to Israel in 20 years, so I can’t really compare. I still have family in France, and they aren’t really worried (they are kind of weird, though :)). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130/180 "2015-07-28T07:39:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Any student of Jewish history will tell you that antisemitism isn’t some randomly manifesting evil, but rather the result (or side effect) of various political, social, cultural and economic issues. That goes without saying. Doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem that needs to be solved, though. That goes without saying as well, but because it is the result (or side effect) of various factors (not always extremely clear, either) it’s not something that’s easily dealt away with. There’s no easy fix, and as for actual solutions I think we’re doing, if not the best we absolutely could in a perfect world with infinite resources (and no anti-semite voters to court…), at least what we can to try and alleviate the problem - both by providing increased protection to Jewish neighbourhoods that are at risk/Jewish individuals who got threats, public condemnations and keeping tabs on organized hate groups in the short term ; and through education, social action and trying to fix up the stupid economy in the longer term. We even dabble in crimethink, which I’m not convinced is actually helping any, but there you go. I’m sure there’s room for improvement, but it’s not like we’re going “ladeeda, all things are well and all manner of things will be well”. If anyone has further pointers (which _don’t_ involve throwing the evil Machumetans into the sea and choking their womenfolk with the guts of their infants, **Hab.** Just pre-emptively throwing that out there), or funding for more better measures, I’m sure we’re takers ;). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/europes-anti-semitism-crisis/726130.md?page=10)