# Euros, Dinosaurs and the Bible. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 14, 2002, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694 "2002-12-14T05:10:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/61 "2002-12-16T17:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tagos \* > **You and me both! The number of times I’ve put my affairs in order…** Huh? What for? I thought the whole idea of knowing when the end of the world was, was to accept all those credit card and unsecured loan offers and run up mind boggling amounts of debt, no? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/62 "2002-12-16T17:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > **There were no “aquatic dinos”.** No? What’s [this page](http://staff.bus.bton.ac.uk/fesg/classiccw/animals/triassic.html) about then? Have they got their terms confused? ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/63 "2002-12-16T18:05:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dylan\_73 \* > \*\*No? What’s [this page](http://staff.bus.bton.ac.uk/fesg/classiccw/animals/triassic.html) about then? Have they got their terms confused? \*\* Yes, they do. None of the creatures mentioned is a dinosaur (gamers aren’t noted for their taxonomic accuracy…). And that’s about as far as I’m willing to go with this here, since it would constitute a significant hijacking (I could talk for hours on this sort of thing…). ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/64 "2002-12-16T18:15:58Z")
The Fight Against Ignorance never counts as a hijack. 😃 [http://www.bbc.co.uk/dinosaurs/howdoweknow/q26.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/dinosaurs/howdoweknow/q26.shtml) > [@](#): > > Were dinosaurs aquatic? > > There are no fully aquatic dinosaurs. There were aquatic reptiles, such as plesiosaurs (like Liopleurodon) and ichthyosaurs (like Ophthalmosaurus) but these were not dinosaurs. > > In the Late Cretaceous, a group of monitor lizards (like the modern Komodo dragon) - the mosasaurs - became adapted to marine life but again these are not closely related to dinosaurs. > > If birds are considered to be dinosaurs, then the penguins are the most adapted to life in the water. However, the fact that they lay eggs means that they still have to come ashore, at least onto ice, to breed. > > Many dinosaurs other than birds such as hadrosaurs may have swum. These seem to have lived in swampy environments ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/65 "2002-12-16T21:48:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > > As for dinosaurs… > > Leviathan: Airtight impenetrable Scales, eyes like the eyelids of the morning, sparks of fire and a flame come from his mouth, smoke like a seething pot or a cauldron come from his nostrils, etc. > > That’s it for now…JD \*\* Umm, JD - that’s not a dinosaur, that’s Godzilla. And Raymond Burr’s the antiChrist, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/66 "2002-12-16T22:04:44Z")
I asked my bro, and he said he thought the “Sirrush” a Babylonian dragonlike monster was mentioned- and that some Cryptozoologists think it could have been a surviving dinosaur. So, as to “dinosaurs”= well, maybe- but not by name, certainly. As to the Euro- well, agin, not by name, and the part about the “mark of the Beast= Euro” is even more stretched. Strech things that far, and the Bible can be taken to say anything you want it too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/67 "2002-12-16T22:08:20Z")
Darwinsfinch- depends on what you define as a “dinosaur”. If you define them as “any of a number of large reptilian extinct creature”, then that includes the Ichyosaurs & the Plesiosaurs. Since “Dinosaur” isn’t a class name, the definition is strechable. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/68 "2002-12-16T22:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*Darwinsfinch- depends on what you define as a “dinosaur”. If you define them as “any of a number of large reptilian extinct creature”, then that includes the Ichyosaurs & the Plesiosaurs. Since “Dinosaur” isn’t a class name, the definition is strechable. \*\* [I beg to differ](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132981). “Dinosaur” has a very specific meaning in taxonomic circles. And, while you _could_ say that a dinosaur is “any of a number of large reptilian extinct creature”, your definition would be every bit as meaningless as if you referred to elephants as dinosaurs. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2002, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/69 "2002-12-16T22:54:00Z")
**Jersey Diamond** , **Duck Duck Goose** has already beaten me to it, but every group that has believed they’re in the End Times believed their reason for thinking so, just as I think my reason for believing we’re not is biblical. I admit the Rapture would solve my unemployment problems rather neatly one way or another, but I’d rather like to see a great many more sunrises and sunsets yet, walk the beaches and mountains in Maine, and see you and **Joe Cool** enjoy many years of marital happiness before that time comes. Until that time, I’ve got work to do in this world, as will those who come after me, I hope. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Sdrawkcab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sdrawkcab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sdrawkcab)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/70 "2002-12-17T01:11:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond _Diogenes the Cynic, there are many people that also see Revelation as a prediction of the future. I, \* along with many others_,do. > Also, the [“beast”](http://www.seekerstrove.com/Prophecies/beast.html) in the Bible isn’t just one thing. Many do believe that the “Rapture” stuff dreamed up by Darby is the Gospel truth. However, they don’t tend to be the best and brightest in the Christian religion. Even the Catholic Church rejects the view of revelation being a map of the future, and Lord knows how loathe the RCC is to change, even when presented with overwhelming evidence. The Christian religion, as a whole, rejects Rapturism and the literal interpretation of the book of Revelation. Only a few fringe groups that represent the most backwards groups within the religion still cling to such daydreams. The same with groups on the fringe who try to insist that the Bible talks about dinosaurs, creatures which had been dead for millions of years before the first scribes ever started writing down the Hebrew people’s tribal myths. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/71 "2002-12-17T03:18:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I admit the Rapture would solve my unemployment problems rather neatly one way or another Watch out–when I was in high school, I very nearly didn’t write a paper for English class because I was soooooo convinced that the Rapture was gonna happen that weekend. Friday night at the rockin’ and rollin’ and speakin’ in tongues teen coffeehouse prayer meeting, “Jesus will come by Monday morning! HalleLUjah!” Sunday afternoon at home, “Umm…maybe I’d better write it anyway, just in case…” You notice how the Rapture didn’t happen in October of 1972… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/72 "2002-12-17T14:39:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sdrawkcab \* > **Many do believe that the “Rapture” stuff dreamed up by Darby is the Gospel truth. However, they don’t tend to be the best and brightest in the Christian religion. Even the Catholic Church rejects the view of revelation being a map of the future, and Lord knows how loathe the RCC is to change, even when presented with overwhelming evidence.** Well, gosh, if the Catholic church rejects it, I’d better hurry and revise my beliefs! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **The Christian religion, as a whole, rejects Rapturism and the literal interpretation of the book of Revelation. Only a few fringe groups that represent the most backwards groups within the religion still cling to such daydreams.** I’d like a cite for this comment, please. If you don’t hold to that belief, that’s fine, but that doesn’t give you leave to insult everybody who disagrees with you. That kind of arrogance is really annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/73 "2002-12-17T15:42:18Z")
If you edit it a little for rhetorical exaggeration, it’s true–Christianity as a whole rejects the concept of the Rapture, and there are only a few denominations and sects that believe in it. [http://www.billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=477](http://www.billygraham.org/qna/qna.asp?i=477) > [@](#): > > What is the “rapture,” and when does it occur? > > There are many Christians who believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be in two phases. First He will come for believers, both living and dead, in the “rapture”…Then, second, after a period of seven years of tribulation on earth, Christ will return to the earth together with His church. > > \< snip \> > > Many other evangelical Christians believe that Christ’s return and the rapture will not occur until the seven years of the tribulation have ended. > > \< snip \> > > The crucial matter is not that all Christians agree on all details of what will occur in the final events of this world’s history. [http://www.orthodoxonline.com/leftbehind.htm](http://www.orthodoxonline.com/leftbehind.htm) > [@](#): > > The popularity of some recent books, videos and even a movie on what is commonly called “rapture” could leave you feeling “Left Behind”. It can be hard not to feel left out as friends and others talk about the popular series. > > Don’t feel left out or left behind. The Orthodox, Roman Catholic and mainstream Protestant Churches all reject this popular myth. You might be surprised to know that the idea of rapture didn’t even exist until about 170 years ago. No Christian believed in this term for the first 1,800 years of Christianity. > > Let’s start by discussing about what in the world people are talking about. Rapture is a popular term among some Protestant sects for the raising of the faithful from the dead. [http://www.notibutchrist.org/The%20Rap-SorL.htm](http://www.notibutchrist.org/The%20Rap-SorL.htm) > [@](#): > > Of the Protestant churches in the United States, the Presbyterians, Episcopals, Disciples of Christ and many of the other major denominations do not believe in the rapture. The theology is found in fundamental and Pentecostal churches as a rule. While the evangelicals would call the other churches “liberal” today, in their day of founding the liberal churches were quite conservative. It is to the roots of the major denominations that we will first turn. The fundamental and Pentecostal churches are in a minority in their belief. [http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher111802.asp](http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher111802.asp) > [@](#): > > Given the amount of popular publicity given to the Rapture and its attendant doctrines, it may surprise (and disappoint) many Christians to learn that this set of beliefs, generally called “dispensationalism,” is not explicitly taught by the Bible, nor has ever been widely held by Christians. > > In fact, neither Roman Catholicism nor Eastern Orthodoxy, which together include most of the world’s Christians who live now and who have ever lived, profess dispensationalist eschatology (which means the study of the End Times). The Rapture is also alien to the historical Protestant confessions…Martin Luther had never heard of such a thing, nor had John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, or any other Protestant divine until a pair of 19th-century British small-sect pastors developed the notion apparently independent of each other. One of the men, John Nelson Darby, traveled widely in North America between 1859 and 1874, where his dispensationalist teachings spread like wildfire. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/74 "2002-12-17T15:43:22Z")
[www.prophecycorner.com/agee/procon978.html](http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/procon978.html) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/75 "2002-12-17T15:56:16Z")
Um, so, in this corner we have one Eric Jewell– > [@](#): > > \*The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory Born In 1830…it was invented about 1830 by either Ms. MacDonald, or Mr. Darby, but it was never before taught in any church. \* > > \*\*That isn’t true. \*\* –whose cite for this is one incredibly obscure tiny little sect, the Preterists, and one incredibly obscure sermon from the Early Christian Church… –and in the other corner we have dozens, perhaps hundreds, of theologians and historians and theological historians. Guess whose corner I’m gonna go sit in? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/76 "2002-12-17T15:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by cjhoworth > Jersey Diamond, Duck Duck Goose_ has already beaten me to it, but every group that has believed they’re in the End Times believed their reason for thinking so, just as I think my reason for believing we’re not is biblical. I admit the Rapture would solve my unemployment problems rather neatly one way or another, but I’d rather like to see a great many more sunrises and sunsets yet, walk the beaches and mountains in Maine, and see you and **Joe Cool** enjoy many years of marital happiness before that time comes. Until that time, I’ve got work to do in this world, as will those who come after me, I hope. Much as I hate to argue Episcopalian doctrine with you on this board, I have to take exception with this remark. Over in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=139828&highlight=Adventism) some time ago I had occasion to say: > [@](#): > > Just for the record, Eucharistic Prayer B in the Episcopal Church’s Book of Common Prayer is based on the Apostolic Liturgy of Hippolytus, c. 110 AD, and in use in various communions ever since. The pertinent line from it is: > > ```auto > > For in these last days You [God the Father] sent Him [Christ] to be incarnate by the Holy Spirit.... > > ``` > > For us, the last 2000 years have been “these last days” and we don’t much care whether they last another 2000 years, ten years, or two days – our job is to be doing His will until He returns. > > Adventism is for the impatient. As it happens, **Joe Cool** said he agreed with me. Now, on the subject of the Rapture, I must agree with you, with a caveat. The relevant Scripture seems to imply such an event if taken literally, the question being to what extent New Testament prophecy is to be read literally. Certainly a lot of O.T. prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus, but in very rare cases in any truly literal way – instead we read into His life, self-sacrifice, and Rising the _real_ meaning of what Isaiah or Micah or Habukkuk had had to say. However, I’d say that the burgeoning evangelical/fundamentalist wing (and yes, I do realize that that applies to two different usually-allied movements) of Christianity does not (in my view, unfortunately) constitute “merely a fringe.” And there seems to be a strong holding in those movements that, yes, what I and II Thessalonians, II Peter, and Revelation had to say will be fulfilled in a literal manner (allowing for the apocalyptic metaphors of Revelation). This is _in general_ denied by the mainline churches of all four main branches of Christianity, expecting instead a symbolic fulfillment of those prophecies along a parallel to how Jesus fulfilled the role of the Suffering Servant rather than the conquering war-leader Messiah or the law-renewing Teacher of Righteousness of contemporary Jewish eschatological thought. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/77 "2002-12-17T15:59:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **If you edit it a little for rhetorical exaggeration, it’s true–Christianity as a whole rejects the concept of the Rapture, and there are only a few denominations and sects that believe in it.** Paul seems to have believed it: > [@](#): > > (1 Th 4:14-17 NIV) We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. {15} According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. {16} **For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. {17} After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.** You can argue about when this is supposed to happen in the end times chronology, but I’m fairly certain that nobody was “caught up together in the clouds” in ancient Rome. Unless you can produce Roman documentation of flying Christians… Sorry if this bothers you, but I consider Paul to be a somewhat more reliable and authoritative source on Christian doctrine than the Catholic church, any of the links you provided, or even you. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/78 "2002-12-17T16:12:23Z")
And as Polycarp just said, it doesn’t matter to me (or Jerseydiamond, for that matter) if the “end” happens this afternoon or 15,000 years from now. The significance of “end times” is that the important stuff already happened, and now we’re just waiting for the final act. Jesus came to earth and accomplished what he needed to, and now for some indeterminate amount of time, we wait until God decides to wrap things up on his own timetable. …Which I believe will include a rapture, a 1260 day minor and 1260 day Great Tribulation (what you call it doesn’t matter. I don’t care if the word ‘rapture’ appears in the bible. Recall that the bible wasn’t written in English, so technically even the word God doesn’t appear), but not necessarily in that order. I’m not convinced which is going to happen first, but I am convinced that neither of them has happened yet. And no amount of mockery and snide remarks will change that. If you want to change my mind, give me scriptural backup, not links to orthodoxy online. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/79 "2002-12-17T16:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\*Unless you can produce Roman documentation of flying Christians… \*\* Can you produce Roman documentation of a Resurrection or Pentecost? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694/80 "2002-12-17T16:48:28Z")
Well, **Joe** , certainly God didn’t accept the offering of a “lamb without spot” hung on a cross by the Romans at the behest of the Sanhedrin – instead it was Jesus, metaphorically a “lamb without spot.” What many of us are suggesting is that _Paul is using figurative language_ in a passage that seems to _principally focus_ on the concern of his correspondents about people _who had died before_ the Second Coming (see verses 14-16 of your Thessalonians quote). No problem either way – I don’t expect a Rapture and think it’s a misinterpretation of what Paul was trying to say (though I believe that what he intended will actually happen in some way that with 20:20 hindsight we’ll see the prophecy to have been fulfilled, just as Isaiah’s “he was wounded for our transgressions, and with his stripes are we healed” was fulfilled in the Atonement). You’re welcome to read it your way, for all of me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euros-dinosaurs-and-the-bible/142694.md?page=5)