# Euthanasia should be permitted in the for the terminally ill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2017, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575 "2017-01-07T21:48:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/41 "2017-01-09T08:53:45Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The problem is that you won’t know whether there’s an afterlife until you’re already dead. So, by your standards, how would you know your suicide is “acceptable” ahead of time? There is not presently any reason to believe an afterlife exists, so it is logical to behave as if there is none. If in the future we could _create_ an afterlife that human consciousness could exist in after death (a la Black Mirror), then I wouldn’t blame a terminally ill person for ending their physical life to live there instead. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/42 "2017-01-09T11:36:05Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > One of the problems I’ve run into trying to get patients into hospice is that in order for us to get an order for hospice, there needs to be a terminal diagnosis, and in order for there to be a terminal diagnosis, there needs to be a diagnosed disease process that is expected to lead to death. Which seems very logical, until you realize that there are a lot of people out there dying of nothing. It was one of the issues which made it difficult to get financial assistance for my grandmother. Diabetes? No. Heart issues? No. Kidney, liver…? Her bloodwork came up better than the doctor’s. And she was very good at lip-reading and loved meeting new people, so people who only saw her once would think she was in better shape than she was (she sat up, didn’t wrap herself up in a ton of clothing but also didn’t try to remove it all, kept up with most of the conversation so long as they looked at her, didn’t bitch with enough energy and zeal to peel wallpaint). But she was still over 100 years old. When she eventually got benefits it was from zero to the highest available level, as she went from being considered “mobile” to “wheelchair bound” (during the time in which she theoretically used a cane, she used it like Charlot). In her case, we understood that questions of “ooh why oh why am I living so long?” weren’t really requests to die so long as she assaulted any meal that passed within reach. Once she clearly was done, the process was limited to nuclear-strength painkillers and that was it. From “looks like this is it” to “she’s dead”, four days. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/43 "2017-01-09T11:52:57Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Would you force a beloved pet to live in pain, rather than humanely put it out of its misery? Why not be just as compassionate toward humans? I put down a sick pet once, and I’ve regretted it and hated myself for it ever since. I think now that it’s ethically _worse_ than euthanizing a human, because the animal doesn’t have the ability to consent. You’re taking a living being that loves you and considers you a surrogate for its own biological parent, and handing it over to be killed. It doesn’t understand why you’re doing that. It’d probably prefer to keep living. It sees you as its provider, its caregiver, its protector - and you’d hand it over to someone who intends to end its existence, because its physical suffering makes _you_ uncomfortable? Would you put down a human, without their knowledge or consent, because in your opinion their pain was too great to make life worth living? Sadly, it seems to me that the answer to that question will be “yes” in a few decades if we as a society go down the road of normalizing suicide as an alternative to medicine. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/44 "2017-01-09T12:15:51Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Good grief no > You can fix that and one day they might be a happy 99 year old who can die happily ready to do the next thing. > No guarantees, an airplane engine could land on your head on the freeway in morning rush hour, but damn, give the kid half a chance? Not all depression can be cured, and it’s a valid cause for euthanasia in the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/45 "2017-01-09T12:30:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Existence, regardless of how painful or miserable it may be, is inherently and objectively preferable to _ceasing to exist and never being again for all the rest of eternity_. > > Suicide is therefore unacceptable under any circumstances. OK, so when a hostage is being held and will be tortured for 7 days and executed on the 8th, that is somehow better than had the person simply been shot on day 1? Those days were worthy and the existence granted is a bonus? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/46 "2017-01-09T12:36:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > OK, so when a hostage is being held and will be tortured for 7 days and executed on the 8th, that is somehow better than had the person simply been shot on day 1? > Those days were worthy and the existence granted is a bonus? Yes. It is better to exist in constant pain than to not exist at all. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/47 "2017-01-09T12:48:45Z")
Euthanasia is a complicated subject. On the surface, it seems like a slam dunk on some cases. People with awful terminal illnesses should be able to end their lives. But then you see some shady crap done by some states and countries. Things like considering suicide for depression a valid form of treatment. How in the blue hell does a doctor diagnose depression as “incurable”, much less terminal? Or has the Netherlands evolved past terminal? Another problem is the moral hazard of insurance companies and governments being unwilling to cover expensive treatments, but perfectly willing to cover death pills. Now we’re starting to get away from the idea that it’s a choice and putting a finger on the scale. So my own opinion is that euthanasia should be legal, but some bright lines have to be drawn that must never be crossed: 1. The patient must ask for it. Not relatives, and if the patient is no longer competent, too bad. 2. The patient must be terminal. Terminal as in, “There is no possible treatment that is likely to extend life significantly”, not terminal as in, “The patient will die if he does not receive treatment.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/48 "2017-01-09T13:02:13Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > If you dig through GD threads, you will find: > When he was 10, his mother did not wake him. He went downstaris where the EMT’s were working on his mother, who had swallowed a bottle of aspirin. Go read what an aspirin OD looks like, then you can comprehend the trauma of a ten year old. > She did survive. That was the first time she attempted suicide, yes. The second time was when I was 17 and my sister was 15, and we were living with her and her boyfriend. She’d told us she’d just gotten a part-time restaurant job. She left before we woke up in the morning, and she left us with notes and $10 cash each telling us she’d be back in the evening. She didn’t come back that night. We found out from her boyfriend the next day after school; she’d gotten a hotel room, gone to Tijuana and bought a shitload of valium, then gone to the hotel and swallowed it all. Somewhere between taking it and when she’d have nodded off for good, she had second thoughts and called 911. It was several weeks before I got to see her again, and thankfully she turned her life around after that and hasn’t tried anything in nearly 20 years since. > [@](#): > > **Smapti** : > You know by the thread title that this is another "do we really have to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, when the patient may prefer non-existence? > Why do you put yourself through this every damned time? Because it’s important to me to advocate for the value of human life in a world where people seem to be deciding that a less-than-perfect life isn’t worth living at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/49 "2017-01-09T13:17:07Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. It is better to exist in constant pain than to not exist at all. Says you. This is what you prefer. Other people may prefer non-existence. This is a _fact_ – it’s not in dispute by anyone that some people would prefer to die than live suffering in the way they currently are. It’s your opinion, and not fact, that these people are wrong, or mentally ill (and it’s not an opinion shared by the consensus of the psychological community that all people who want to end their life are mentally ill). I would prefer death/non-existence to continuous suffering. I didn’t exist for most of the history of the universe, and I have and had no problem with it at all. Not existing meant no pain and no suffering. I’m happy with living right now, but if things changed and I was in constant suffering, with no prospect of it ending, I would likely try to kill myself no matter what the law said. Differing people can reasonably feel differently about this _for themselves_. It’s wrong for you to try and impose your own opinion, which is borne of trauma and not reason, on others. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/50 "2017-01-09T13:24:29Z")
Gotta agree with you. I’ve heard it said that it’s time to put your dog down when it’s just not fun to be a dog anymore. I think the same applies to me. When it’s just not fun to be me anymore and there’s no prospect that it’ll get any better, it’s time to go. Fortunately, I’m easily amused, so chances are I will stick around even though a lot of suffering as long as i can watch TV or read a book. But if I’m told that I’m terminal and pretty soon I won’t be able to function at all(can’t wipe my butt, need someone else to turn me to avoid bedsores, sight and hearing going fast, mental function going faster), then I’m probably getting out while the getting’s good. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/51 "2017-01-09T20:26:13Z")
Everyone should have a right to die when they choose, regardless of the circumstances, terminal illness or no. Everyone should also have the right to help anyone who has documented their desire to die to do so without legal repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/52 "2017-01-09T20:31:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > . . . I’ve heard it said that it’s time to put your dog down when it’s just not fun to be a dog anymore. . . . And, alas, there are stages far worse than “just not fun.” Unending screaming agony. How does keeping a dog alive…in agony…really differ from animal torture? At least we, as rational beings, can understand how present pain may lead to future comfort. That’s why we let surgeons cut us open. Dogs can’t even begin to comprehend why they are suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/53 "2017-01-09T20:32:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes. It is better to exist in constant pain than to not exist at all. Of all the things in the world you should have no say in when it comes to other people’s decisions, this one should top the list. ---
**Author:** ![Maurie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Maurie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maurie)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/54 "2017-01-09T20:55:13Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > This is a big issue in Canada at the moment. > > There are a lot of plausible “what if” scenarios. Could a depressed 19 year old request euthanasia? > > It seems reasonable for terminal illness to reduce suffering. Issues of competence, definitions of terminal, family issues, medical power of attorney, living wills, who does the euthanasia, who would refuse to do the euthanasia… All come into play. I grew up in a family with several members actively involved in advocating for euthanasia, and not for one second did I ever question that letting those who choose to die do so was the right thing to do. It seemed so simple and obvious to me. It wasn’t until it started finally being discussed for real in Canada that I realized that it’s a lot more complicated than I always thought. I am still absolutely all for it, I just no longer have full clarity about how exactly it can be implemented and regulated, for all the reasons mentioned by **Dr\_Paprika** , and I worry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Macrina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Macrina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macrina)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/55 "2017-01-11T01:13:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > \<\\> > It was several weeks before I got to see her again, and thankfully she turned her life around after that and hasn’t tried anything in nearly 20 years since. > > \*\*Because it’s important to me to advocate for the value of human life in a world where people seem to be deciding that a less-than-perfect life isn’t worth living at all. \*\* I, for one, support you in your desire to advocate for the value of human life. And you certainly have as much right to put forth your beliefs and standards here on this site every bit as much as does the ‘death by desire’ crowd. It’s interesting, though, that the push-back on those of us who believe that human life is sacred in of itself, often tends towards the hinky put-down and marginalization of one’s belief. Those of us who value life tend not to do this to those with opposite beliefs, but rather try to reason with and be compassionate towards those who do not have the proper understanding and value of human life. There are objective moral standards about these issues whether one believes in them or not. On the personal side, I think it’s wonderful that your mum has been able to see the value in remaining alive. This takes great moral strength and fortitude. And forgive me, Smapti, as obviously I am a late-comer to the discussion here. I probably have misunderstood some of your positions because admittedly, I have not gone through the archives to read all your comments. One has to be able to start somewhere, eh? I will appreciate your forbearance. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/56 "2017-01-11T01:54:25Z")
“objective moral standards” is an oxymoron. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/57 "2017-01-11T03:52:52Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > “objective moral standards” is an oxymoron. Not to “True Believers” of the “One True Religion”\* or “Correct Thinking”. :rolleyes: - - Isn’t it amazing how many folks have had the incredible good luck to have been raised to believe the "One True Religion’? Imagine the hassle of having to change religions when you discover TOTR and realize that your parents, teachers, newspapers - everything you ever saw were ALL _wrong_? The paperwork alone must be mountainous… ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/58 "2017-01-11T06:14:47Z")
Oregon: Can’t pump your own gas, but you can kill yourself. Ain’t that a hoot? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/59 "2017-01-11T08:15:26Z")
Of all the responses so far on this thread I find this one to be the most condescending and contemptible > [@Macrina](#): > > I, for one, support you in your desire to advocate for the value of human life. And you certainly have as much right to put forth your beliefs and standards here on this site every bit as much as does the ‘death by desire’ crowd. Those who advocate the choice of euthanasia also advocate for the value of human life “death by desire” ? is that a clever little pejorative label that you thought up all by yourself? > [@](#): > > It’s interesting, though, that the push-back on those of us who believe that human life is sacred in of itself, often tends towards the hinky put-down and marginalization of one’s belief. Those of us who value life tend not to do this to those with opposite beliefs, but rather try to reason with and be compassionate towards those who do not have the proper understanding and value of human life. “proper understanding and value of human life”? Does your belief system condone such arrogance? Personally I’ve seen both parents die in misery and agony with terminal cancer and a friend in his 30’s die of motor neurone disease, slowly wasting away to oblivion. All would have preferred an assisted death at the time of their choosing, all were unable to have that. Don’t presume to tell me that I and those good and decent people somehow did not have a “proper understanding and value of human life” > [@](#): > > There are objective moral standards about these issues whether one believes in them or not. So state them clearly and let’s debate them. I personally do not believe that there are and that you cannot support that statement. > [@](#): > > On the personal side, I think it’s wonderful that your mum has been able to see the value in remaining alive. This takes great moral strength and fortitude. A compliment wrapped up with the snarky implication that those who are under terminal diagnosis and would choose euthanasia are, of course, weak and cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2017, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575/60 "2017-01-11T08:22:57Z")
Of all the responses so far on this thread I find this one to be the most condescending and contemptible > [@Macrina](#): > > I, for one, support you in your desire to advocate for the value of human life. And you certainly have as much right to put forth your beliefs and standards here on this site every bit as much as does the ‘death by desire’ crowd. Those who advocate the choice of euthanasia also advocate for the value of human life “death by desire” ? is that a clever little pejorative label that you thought up all by yourself? > [@](#): > > It’s interesting, though, that the push-back on those of us who believe that human life is sacred in of itself, often tends towards the hinky put-down and marginalization of one’s belief. Those of us who value life tend not to do this to those with opposite beliefs, but rather try to reason with and be compassionate towards those who do not have the proper understanding and value of human life. “proper understanding and value of human life”? Does your belief system condone such arrogance? Personally I’ve seen both parents die in misery and agony with terminal cancer and a friend in his 30’s die of motor neurone disease, slowly wasting away to oblivion. All would have preferred an assisted death at the time of their choosing, all were unable to have that. Don’t presume to tell me that I and those good and decent people somehow did not have a “proper understanding and value of human life” > [@](#): > > There are objective moral standards about these issues whether one believes in them or not. So state them clearly and let’s debate them. I personally do not believe that there are and that you cannot support that statement. > [@](#): > > On the personal side, I think it’s wonderful that your mum has been able to see the value in remaining alive. This takes great moral strength and fortitude. A compliment wrapped up with the snarky implication that those who are under terminal diagnosis and would choose euthanasia are, of course, weak and cowardly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/euthanasia-should-be-permitted-in-the-for-the-terminally-ill/776575.md?page=4)