Euthanasia should be permitted in the for the terminally ill

Great Debates
81

The web is a wonderful thing.

An hour or two will produce all kinds of info.

I didn’t find it in time, but there was an Australian “Beer-Making Kit” which included a draw-string plastic bag and a bottle of inert gas with valve and tubing.

The maker did admit that it was, in fact, a suicide kit.

And, when coupled with a sleep-inducing agent, a really good way to leave a pretty corpse.

When you hold your breath, that “gotta breath, gotta breath…” feeling is not from a lack of oxygen (your blood has enough oxygen to last several minutes) - it is the build-up of carbon dioxide.
If you could breath something with no oxygen (air is only 20% oxygen), your blood will eventually run out of oxygen and you will suffocate.

And car exhaust has changed formula in the last 20 years (damned tree-huggers).
It is still hot and acrid, but takes much longer.

Get the to a search engine.

82

Okay, and then what? Your family member, friend, or landlord finds your body and has to call 911. They get grilled by the cops about what happened, where were they, did you have any enemies? Your suicide note is sent to forensics to figure out if you really wrote it or if it was part of an elaborate murder plot. Your assets are going to be frozen until everything is sorted out, leaving your family to pay for your funeral and burial expenses out of pocket. You’ve created a legal and financial nightmare for your survivors, and cost taxpayers thousands of dollars in investigation time and materials.

The benefit of legal medically assisted death isn’t just with the actual mechanism of death*, it’s that it’s legal. It’s *expected *that you’ll die, and no one needs to call 911 or do a death investigation.

*The most common drug used is secobarbital, followed by phenobarbital. These are drugs that, in smaller doses, are routinely used as sedatives, so we know they don’t hurt. It usually takes between 2 minutes and 24 hours after you take it before you fall asleep and die in your sleep.

83

The paperwork used to be called “Getting your affairs in order”, and was suggested to anyone with a terminal (in the short term) condition.

See a local lawyer to set up a corporation and issue stock to whoever you trust. Make sure that the stock has right of survival, or whatever - that is what you pay a lawyer to know.

Send a snail-mail to the recipient “By the time you read this…”.

Enroll in a burn-and-scatter or prepaid service (optional) and burial.

The snail mail contains something only you can access, so it is proof that you checked out voluntarily.

I leave a pretty corpse, a proof of intent, and all assets transfer instantly.

I live in a “Doctor Assisted” state. But the barbiturates are reserved for "Terminal Illness + patient must request them three times (really doesn’t help those too far gone to communicate, does it?), including in written form at least once.

This covers an incredibly small sub-set of the population who would want such drugs.
Here’s a hypothetical:

Doc, I’ve weighed the prospects of my life in the near future. I do NOT want to go there.
It will take me WAY less than the magical “6 months” to die.
Would you be so kind?

Just how far do you think that would get you?
It would get you grabbed and held for three days, during which time, there will be a habeus corspus (whatever) hearing. You may not notice that this guy is a judge and this is a real legal hearing and your last chance of NOT being institutionalized.
I know - been there, done that.

If you say the word “suicide” as something you might do to a MD in CA, you will get this treatment.

So no, you can’t get the barbies unless you have 6 months or less for “God to take you home”, even trying to ask for them will get you locked up.

I am facing dialysis - as in tethered to a machine with tubes in your arm or in your gut.

The reason you don’t see people who have been modified for dialysis is because they are either hooked up to a machine or lying motionless.
Sounds real inviting, don’t it?

84

Having experienced the aftermath of my sister’s suicide I can vouch for all of the above. It is NOT a kindness to the family. That’s not even touching on the guilt, anger, and grief you leave behind,

85

For those who may not be aware:

Everybody dies. What happens when the State executes a person? Do all those problems magically go away?

Broomstick - did your sister not, at some point, inform you of the possibility of suicide?

I have long suspected that I will die “by my own hands” at some point.
In my case, nobody will be surprised to get word, my estate is minimal.

Everybody dies; some just know where and when in advance.
Big deal.
Now, do you really want to try to guilt trip someone to continue a life they really, really do not like?

That would seem to be counterproductive to convincing the person to stay around.

“You have to stay because I would be inconvenienced if you suicide!” does NOT help the situation.

86

Yeah, I agree, it’s messed up. As I said above, I’m all for medically assisted dying, but I don’t like the “terminal diagnosis” requirement for it, for exactly this reason. I think everyone should be able to get help dying if their life isn’t working for them, whether it be a terminal diagnosis or untreatable mental illness or chronic pain. It’s not up to me to say whether another person’s life is worth living or not. That’s their call, and it shouldn’t be a right reserved for only those with a specific diagnosis.

And, as you’ve pointed out, we all do have the “right” to die, as long as we’re quiet about it. Suicide is not illegal. It’s just…messy. I’d rather we made that less messy for everyone involved. Kind of like abortion - restricting access to abortion doesn’t decrease abortions, it only decreases humane and medically safe abortions. Restricting access to medically assisted death doesn’t prevent anyone from committing suicide, it just forces them to do it in ways that are more destructive for themselves and everyone around them.

I see about half a dozen people a week on dialysis, actually. And it does suck. Mostly what sucks is having to go to the dialysis center for 8-10 hours three days a week. That really puts most of your life on hold. If they haven’t brought it up already, I strongly suggest asking them about home peritoneal dialysis and seeing if that’s an option for you. My folks on home peritoneal have by far the best quality of life of all my dialysis patients. Most of them do it overnight while they sleep, so as to have no activity restrictions during the day.

87

A lot of them do. For instance, people go in completely prepared to clean up the mess. And there’s less mess, depending on the method. They can lay down plastic sheeting in the execution chamber. (I’m being flippant, but I’m serious too.)

There is still emotional trauma to the loved ones, but they will have some level of comprehension. They won’t be left wondering, “Why did he do it?” as happens often with the families of suicide victims. (They may wonder why did he commit murder, but it isn’t quite the same.)

And, if it is done right (and there have been far too many hideous exceptions) execution doesn’t involve terrible pain. Lethal injection ought to be about the same as going under anaesthesia for surgery.

88

Yeah, she had had clinical depression for 17 years by that point. Little different from some in that she had never had any prior attempts or “gestures”.

That would hold more water if there hadn’t be long stretches of time when my sister very much wanted to live. Her depression wasn’t constant 24/7. At the time of her death she was going through several major life stressors but they were all temporary and if she hadn’t killed herself at that point and, assuming her usual pattern, she would have returned to desiring to live.

Also, in her three page suicide note she was very specific that part of her motivation was to cause pain to very specific, named people. Which she did. So it wasn’t just about “I don’t want to live” but “I want to cause X, Y, and Z lifelong pain with my death”.

Riiiiight… because it’s all about just one person. :rolleyes:

89

Not becoming a doctor like your parents want affects more than one person, but you’re still not obligated to do things you don’t want to please other people.

90

This is the technique which requires tubes into your gut. Not a charming selling point, but this is what I’m leaning to. Being a Medicare patient, I get all of the “still wet behind ears” nephrologists (I had to add that word to the spell checker - wish I didn’t know how to spell it).
The often call in the “Dean” of the place, Dr. Don.
I’ve chatted with him about home peritoneal dialysis.

I would make an excellent poster child while in bed connected to both a CPAP and a dialyzer (another new word for the spell checker).

But yeah, If I could do it while sleeping. With me, the sleep regimen is quite a process - I am on both morphine and a benzodiazepine - the classic “accidental suicide” if you get the wrong mixture.*

    • I use UCD medical services. That combination of drugs gets my name on a LIST. My “Associate Physician” (low on the salary chart - I’ve seen it) gets all bothered. First she cuts the morphine to 1/3 and now she wants to take even that away.
      “Doctor functioning as patient advocate” was not covered in her med school.
      Time for a new PCP.
91

Not an apt comparison. Choosing a profession is not comparable to ending your life. When come back bring actual valid argument.

92

OK, but doing it in any of those ways you list leaves a mess behind, both for the cleaners and for the people handling the paperwork. And depending on what you’re sick with, by the time you want out you may be physically unable to do it yourself.

Making it legal makes it possible to get help and leaves a cleaner situation.

93

Even in the patient asks for ti, they be under pressure. Even if no pressure is applied, they may think they must do it for the family.

Also, will a blanket acceptance of euthanasia reduce the option available to patients? Will authorities (In USA, insurance companies, in UK NHS) reduce choices? Will care options for elderly people - (eg: care homes) also reduce?

If the number of cancer wards and beds is reduced, euthanasia becomes a bigger options - and if euthanasia is a bigger option, the number of cancer wards and beds is reduced - a viscous circle.

94

Those who are opposed to “Medically assisted suicide” (which is not on the table anywhere I know of): ask yourself “why”.

People die in car crashes every damned day. Those deaths are both unexpected and incredibly messy.

So the argument “It’s messy and inconsiderate to those who have to clean up the mess” fails right there.
The “leaves a mess of paperwork” is true of ANY unexpected death. Failed again.

A properly done suicide - see me earlier post for a very common method -leaves no mess, has all the paperwork except the signature n the Death Certificate.
Emotional trauma to others? ANY sudden, unexpected death does that, and beside, I do not have to suffer for years to keep you happy.
I do not owe you anything on that score.
If you love someone, you expose yourself to emotional hits when things hurt your beloved.

So: What is it about suicide which jerks your chains so hard?

95

So I see SC nominee Neil Gorsuch has written about this extensively…

96

If my loved one is lying a bed dying that’s sad, perhaps traumatic.

If someone bursts into the hospital room where my loved one lays dying and shoots them in the face at point blank range with shotgun that’s an additional level of trauma - you’ve just added the trauma of murder to the trauma of death by X, making the whole situation much more painful.

If your dying loved one pulls a shotgun out from under his/her pillow and blows his/her own head off then you get the trauma of murder along with the trauma of dying from X, but without the possibility of bringing the murderer of your loved one to justice with a trial and punishment.

Would that apply to absolutely all situations? Probably not - but suicide apologists don’t want to hear that a suicide can be more painful and traumatic to those left behind than some other sorts of death. It’s all about the person committing suicide and the suffering of other people doesn’t count and isn’t to be considered. usedtobe you don’t feel you should have to suffer for others, why don’t you understand that others don’t want to suffer for you?

97

In which direction? Can you give a quick summary?

98

I think if I were to suffer from dementia, Alzheimer’s, memory problems, etc., I would like to step out myself rather than let things play out for a decade or two. I can’t imagine being in a nursing home and having conversations like this for the rest of my life:

“Who are you?”
“I’m your daughter.”
“That’s nice… Who are you?”
“Dad, I’m your daughter.”
“That’s nice. … Who are you?”

And the whole time my family is spending $120k per year of my retirement savings on my care until it’s gone and I get moved to a Medicare hellhole. For what? I can’t imagine my quality of life at that time is such that it’s worth it.

I hope that if I were to get the diagnosis, I will be competent long enough to take the necessary steps to get the job done myself.

99

I used those arguments in SUPPORT of Medically assisted suicide, which is indeed legal in a couple of US states and some European Union countries, under a number of different names and programs.

I used those arguments against UNassisted suicide. Because, as Broomstick says, they add additional trauma and expense to an already difficult experience (death).

If I want to die and my doctor can legally help me do that, it means I can have a conversation with my husband first, and he can’t get me locked up for talking about wanting to commit suicide (or, as a mandated reporter, he can’t get locked up if he doesn’t report my suicidal intent). I can do it gently, at a time and place of my own choosing, with him being present. And when it’s done, he can call the funeral home to quietly pick up my body, instead of 911 to come in with sirens and lights and start CPR and begin a death investigation in my bedroom.

100

Yeah, not having a death investigation in the home is a plus.

When my nephew died in his own bed it was very disruptive, the police did a full investigation, his father more or less had to move out of the house for a couple days until all the formalities were gone through, he was extensively questioned - seriously, he found his son dead and then all the other crap started and went on for a couple days.

When my mother died, because she was in hospice and it was what was called “an expected death” the cops showed up, checked to make sure no one had obviously hastened things along, then signed a form that basically said “yep, she did at home as everyone expected” and that was it. Much less traumatic.