# Evading the hate speech prohibition **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 4, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775 "2024-09-04T19:02:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/61 "2024-09-05T12:33:41Z")
I generally interpret constructions like the one referenced in the OP as puerile at best, and absolutely distinct from quoting somebody’s actual speech. As a rhetorical device I think it’s severely lacking because it gives cover for folks to shrug and go, “well I don’t use **that** word so the sentiment clearly doesn’t apply to me.” I definitely think any posts like the one from the OP should be closely scrutinized, as it seems to have been in this case. I would not want this board to be a place where that kind of speech is used casually, even in a “putting words in the mouths of bigots” kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/62 "2024-09-05T12:45:19Z")
I’d like to enter into evidence … “Blazing Saddles:” > **[Blazing Saddles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blazing_Saddles)** > > Blazing Saddles is a 1974 American satirical postmodernist Western black comedy film directed by Mel Brooks, who co-wrote the screenplay with Andrew Bergman, Richard Pryor, Norman Steinberg and Alan Uger, based on a story treatment by Bergman. The film stars Cleavon Little and Gene Wilder. Brooks appears in two supporting roles: Governor William J. Le Petomane, and a Yiddish-speaking Indian chief; he also dubs lines for one of Lili Von Shtupp's backing troupe and a cranky moviegoer. The The f... Many/most of us know it. We probably also know how controversial it was in its early days among those who couldn’t readily discern its _satirical take on_ racism. And it made fairly liberal use of racial epithets. Many would say the movie simply couldn’t be made today. Some would clearly say that friends probably shouldn’t/wouldn’t openly throw the biting dialog around in earshot of others. All of that would be fair. But could a BBQ Pit … or … Cafe Society thread about the best movie quotes/scenes of all time _include_ “Blazing Saddles” lines that _include_ that word? What about if ‘that word’ _has been_ bowdlerized? Was Mel Brooks _really_ doing the “I’m not touching you” bit?? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/63 "2024-09-05T12:57:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > People don’t say the n-word to mock racists. > > Yes, they do. > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > They say it to get away with saying the n-word. > > Is that what I was doing when I used the word _nigger_, multiple times in this thread alone? And there’s what I observed before – the presumed _per se_ “wrongness” of _that set of letters/sounds_ being even printed, read, spoken or heard unless you can otherwise justify it. We have reached the point where in our culture it is assumed there is no other reason for quoting it, than an intent to “get away with it”. um… progress? (I mean sure, it doesn’t help that some tech bros wasted half a year trying to force ChatGPT to say it and whining that this meant it was “woke”, but really, context, people!) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/64 "2024-09-05T13:01:35Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Many would say the movie simply couldn’t be made today. Quentin Tarantino would not be one of that many. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/65 "2024-09-05T13:18:37Z")
That’s a really great point. It also represents another nuanced flavor of the use of epithets, not confined solely to racist usage (QT seems to like “bitch,” too). He’s – generally – neither mocking racists via satire (Brooks) nor using epithets _as_ hate-speech. His thoughts, and the thoughts of some of his go-to actors, on the subject: > **[Quentin Tarantino Tells Off Critics Upset With N-Word Use and Violence in His...](https://variety.com/2022/film/news/quentin-tarantino-n-word-violence-backlash-1235438720/)** > > Quentin Tarantino has long been criticized for his frequent use of the N-word in his movies. Could one quote Tarantino, then, in a Pit or CS thread about lines or scenes? This one strikes me the way that “MAGAts” did/does: maybe self-censor, but do we need a bright line rule? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/66 "2024-09-05T13:22:31Z")
No, **we do not need a bright line rule.** Leave it up to the Moderators. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/67 "2024-09-05T13:23:01Z")
Yeah. I’m agreeing with that position. I could have been clearer. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/68 "2024-09-05T13:23:42Z")
Sorry, I got that. I was agreeing and emphasizing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/69 "2024-09-05T13:34:17Z")
I don’t know that a bright line rule is called for. I also didn’t like that post at all (the one that introduced the racist-sexist epithets into the conversation). When I was a teenager, I was getting harassed by some other teens who were saying some gross stuff about me. When an adult intervened, I told her that the words they used were the equivalent of using the n-word. (I said the word–which I don’t, for cultural reasons, say or type now). She ignored me. I repeated the analogy, and the word. At that point, she–a Black woman–glared at me, and said something like, “The first time you said that, it was just you making an argument. Second time you say that, it sounds like you’re saying something yourself.” I was shocked, and denied I meant anything by it. But thirty years later, I still remember that exchange, and it informs my unwillingness to engage in explicit mentions of racist epithets, and especially informs my unwillingness to introduce them into the conversation as an attack on my opponents. I think that post, putting racist and sexist epithets into the mouths of Harris’s opponents, was not great. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/70 "2024-09-05T13:59:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The post they were complaining about didn’t even use the word _nigger_. I think you’re focusing too much on the word and not enough on the expression of hate. This is an expression of hate: > A vote for Trump is a vote against that uppity n/99/r bitch Harris. Is a vote for project 2025. It is hate speech directed at a prominent woman of color. We don’t need a bright line rule against particular words. We do need a fuzzy rule against expressions of hate, independent of whether or not this example should’ve been moderated. Our current fuzzy rule puts ascribed hate speech on the permitted side. I would rather see hate speech be moderated whenever its use is unnecessary. Implementation of this is necessarily fuzzy, but shifted from our current rule. Quoting again because I think it captures the issue so well: > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Clearly a ‘no hate speech’ rule needs to specify either ‘_sarcastic or ironic use of hate speech, meant to call out the hatred underlying the speech, is prohibited_’ OR ‘_sarcastic or ironic use of hate speech, meant to call out the hatred underlying the speech, is permitted as long as readers (including moderators) agree that the post in question IS a call-out and not a disingenuous attempt to evade the hate-speech prohibition_.’ I prefer the first option, but the rules would still benefit from making the second option explicit in the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/71 "2024-09-05T14:08:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “The first time you said that, it was just you making an argument. Second time you say that, it sounds like you’re saying something yourself.” This is excellent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/72 "2024-09-05T14:15:16Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > This is an expression of hate: Not by the poster. Look, I’d be the last poster to say there isn’t such a thing as hate speech. Or that hate speech laws are bad. I’m very much on record as being in favour of them to a degree way beyond American or even European standards. I’ve been castigated right here for my stance, in fact. But that’s for _actual_ hate speech. Which this is not. I’ve been the recipient of enough actual targeted racist hate speech in my life to recognize it when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/73 "2024-09-05T14:17:31Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It is hate speech directed at a prominent woman of color. It is quoted hate speech from the view of a Trump voter. _Not_ the views of the poster himself. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/74 "2024-09-05T14:19:15Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > This post is expressing hate speech, both racist and sexist. The poster does not hold those views, and ascribes them to Trump voters. Fair enough. As stated in the original post. I know naughty words are shiny, but that’s not what this thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/75 "2024-09-05T14:21:15Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > As stated in the original post. So if the poster is not expressing hate at Harris, how the fuck is it hate speech? Words are _not_ hate speech without the context of who is saying them, to whom. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/76 "2024-09-05T14:24:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > As stated in the original post. > > So if the poster is not expressing hate at Harris, how the fuck is it hate speech? The poster is expressing someone else’s hate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/77 "2024-09-05T14:24:25Z")
That’s not hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/78 "2024-09-05T14:26:19Z")
I’m not interested in playing semantics. It’s an expression of hate, ascribed to someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/79 "2024-09-05T14:27:09Z")
Which is not “hate speech.” It’s not semantics, it’s the literal definition. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775/80 "2024-09-05T14:27:16Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’m not interested in playing semantics. This whole argument is _about_ semantics. > [@Pleonast](#): > > It’s an expression of hate, ascribed to someone else. Fully agree. That is not hate speech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evading-the-hate-speech-prohibition/1006775.md?page=5)