# Evangelical Christmas Cards.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 22, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172 "2004-12-22T16:24:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/61 "2004-12-23T00:25:54Z")
No offense, **Homebrew** , but why should anyone respect your beliefs or try not to annoy you with theirs? It’s not like you have some innate right to the protection of your “beliefs bubble”. People that you associate with have their own beliefs and understandings of the world, obviously among your aunt’s beliefs there’s this thing about being preachy with relatives she thinks are going to hell.
I think you ought to send something appropriately atheistic back, about how God is a lie, there’s no such thing, and why that is, something very similar in nature to the card she sent you. The preaching stops really fast, you’d be surprised.
If that fails, find a nice card for Easter with no text in it at all, and a picture of Christ crucified on the front, and jot the note “I’m glad” inside and sign your name.
Being upset, or even annoyed, because your overtly religious aunt sent you an overtly over the top religious card is stupidity. Of course she did, were you thinking it would be “frosty” this year? “Rudolph”? If it annoys you, tell your aunt to stop sending you shit in the mail.
You know what annoys me? _Pussies_ and _morons_, grow the fuck up. See how I did that? Now grow a pair and call your aunt on the phone.
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/62 "2004-12-23T00:57:19Z")
Homebrew:
Perhaps on the anniversary of Charles Darwin’s birthday you could give them the gift of a year’s subscription to [Skeptical Enquirer](http://www.csicop.org/si/).
---
### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/63 "2004-12-23T01:26:26Z")
Hee-heee, Inquirer, sorry. Boy, that was an unintentional oxymoron.
---
### Author:  [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/64 "2004-12-23T02:19:41Z")
For anyone interested, here’s the whole text:
[http://www.drmikebagwell.org/LadiesPage%20Archives.html](http://www.drmikebagwell.org/LadiesPage%20Archives.html)
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*Hundreds and even thousands of years before Jesus the Messiah was born in Bethlehem, God has spoken many prophecies about His coming. He spoke them through men like Moses, David, Isaiah and Micah. In order for Jesus to be the true Messiah, He had to fulfill every prophecy that was ever spoken and written about said Messiah … AND HE DID! Every single one!
>
> HERE ARE JUST A FEW …
>
> - He would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) … and He was (Matthew 1:18-25)!
>
> - He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) … and He was (Matthew 2:1-6)!
>
> - He would heal the sick and make people whole (Isaiah 5:3) … and He did (Matthew 8)!
>
> - He would be crucified (Psalm 22:14-17) … and He was (Matthew 27:31)!
>
> - He would die for our sins (Isaiah 53) … and He did (John 1:29, John 11:49-52)!
>
> - He would be raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10) … and He was (Matthew 28:1-10)!
>
> The many prophecies about Jesus’ Second Coming have not yet been fulfilled … but one day they will be! Every single one!
>
> In celebration of His birth, His life, His death, His resurrection … and in anticipation of all that we have to look forward to when He returns … HAVE A WONDERFUL GLORIOUS WORSHIPFUL REVERENT CHRISTMAS SEASON!
>
> Jesus says: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, saith the Lord, Which is and Which was and Which is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8 \*\*
---
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/65 "2004-12-23T02:22:51Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> No offense, **Homebrew** , but why should anyone respect your beliefs or try not to annoy you with theirs?
Basic civility?
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/66 "2004-12-23T02:31:59Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> No offense, **Homebrew** , but why should anyone respect your beliefs or try not to annoy you with theirs? It’s not like you have some innate right to the protection of your “beliefs bubble”. People that you associate with have their own beliefs and understandings of the world, obviously among your aunt’s beliefs there’s this thing about being preachy with relatives she thinks are going to hell.
>
> I think you ought to send something appropriately atheistic back, about how God is a lie, there’s no such thing, and why that is, something very similar in nature to the card she sent you. The preaching stops really fast, you’d be surprised.
>
> If that fails, find a nice card for Easter with no text in it at all, and a picture of Christ crucified on the front, and jot the note “I’m glad” inside and sign your name.
>
> Being upset, or even annoyed, because your overtly religious aunt sent you an overtly over the top religious card is stupidity. Of course she did, were you thinking it would be “frosty” this year? “Rudolph”? If it annoys you, tell your aunt to stop sending you shit in the mail.
>
> You know what annoys me? _Pussies_ and _morons_, grow the fuck up. See how I did that? Now grow a pair and call your aunt on the phone.
Well, humanists should do it out of basic courtesy. Christians should do it based on Christ’s teachings on how to behave toward others. Jews should do it based on the Law that Christ got it from. Confucians should do it because they too hold to the Golden Rule. Muslims should do it because of Allah’s command about how to deal with others in the Qu’ran.
Obnoxious idiots, obviously, need not do it. But neither should we give a shit what they say, either.
---
### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/67 "2004-12-23T02:37:06Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Well, the South Park folks haven’t got that one up yet, but how about a [Santa Cthulhu](http://www.needcoffee.com/html/toys/scthulhu.htm)?
[Does this count?](http://www.illwillpress.com)
---
### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/68 "2004-12-23T02:44:48Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Basic civility?
I think what he should be asking for here is basic civility, not for someone to respect his beliefs. It’s safe to say that he doesn’t respect hers any more than she respects his, nor are either likely to do so, but out of personal respect for each other, he should lobby for kind politeness. Not necessarily by kicking her in the cunt(Religiously), as my previous post may have indicated in it’s tongue in cheek manner, but by simple straightforwardness, with a touch of harshness held in a humorous manner.
For example, a phone call or email that indicates, politely, that if she stop sending him such cards, he promises not to think of Jesus when he masturbates anymore.
My Aunt Roberta typically sends things like this to me, and I have to say, I admire her diligence in the face of years of comments I’ve made about various Bishops and Popes. They have slowed greatly over the years though, and I’m happy to say that this Christmas I received a Santa card, with an enclosed article about a moose and a taxi driver that was entirely non-religious.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/69 "2004-12-23T02:46:32Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Or he could send them a card with an adorable li’l squirrel squeaking, [sub]“Hail, Satan!”[/sub], wishing them a Woodland Critter Christmas to celebrate the birth of the Antichrist, Devourer of Worlds.
This is the best business plan I’ve heard in years.
The closest I’ve come to purchasing a Christmas card was awhile ago when I lived in an apartment previously occupied by a Dentist. He got a dental catalog that featured a card showing a rat wearing a Santa hat, riding a tube of toothpaste like a witch on a broom. The toothpaste oozed in candycane colors from the tube, and spelled out “Merry Christmas!” in cursive.
The concept of a rat and spilt toothpaste representing Christmas was adorably repulsive, and I almost bought a couple dozen of the cards to send out to friends. Sadly, they were terribly expensive.
I’d shell out big bucks for the Satan-squirrel card, though.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/70 "2004-12-23T02:48:22Z")
**Shaolinrabbit** : Respecting other people’s beliefs _is_ basic civility. Nothing you’ve described in this thread remotely resembles either.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/71 "2004-12-23T02:59:45Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> Well, humanists should do it out of basic courtesy. Christians should do it based on Christ’s teachings on how to behave toward others. Jews should do it based on the Law that Christ got it from. Confucians should do it because they too hold to the Golden Rule. Muslims should do it because of Allah’s command about how to deal with others in the Qu’ran.
>
> Obnoxious idiots, obviously, need not do it. But neither should we give a shit what they say, either.
You can’t respect a belief that you believe to be inherantly false, it defies the nature of respect. You can respect a person who adheres to their belief, and I think that’s a more rational cause.
Some beliefs, by the way, are not respected by their nature typically, nor the people who believe them. Racists and Nazis spring immediately to mind. It’s important to remember that a non-violent nazi believer isn’t harming anyone with his beliefs per se, except perhaps emotionally.
A Christian, Muslim, or Jew may do the same, depending on how they interpret their beliefs. So can an atheist for that matter.
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Miller_
> Respecting other people’s beliefs is basic civility. Nothing you’ve described in this thread remotely resembles either.
I’m willing to be that I can name ten beliefs held by millions each that you don’t respect out of civility, **Miller**.
And no, it’s not basic civility, respect implies high esteem, regard, or other deference to belief, civility implies politeness, manners. They’re two different things. An atheist, by nature, does not hold the belief in God in high regard, but they can be polite to someone who believes, and even respect the person themselves.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/72 "2004-12-23T03:02:45Z")
Also, as a note, you can be very polite to a racist or nazi, without respecting their beliefs.
It’s foolish to assume that some beliefs deserve respect while others simply don’t because some are “right” and some are “wrong”. God can seem just as damaging and just as false as racial superiority or fascism. Doesn’t mean you can’t be polite.
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### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/73 "2004-12-23T03:10:37Z")
I am a stone cold lifelong atheist and I’ve never sent a Holiday card in my life. My understanding is that many (most?) people buy their cards in a big old batch and send the same one to everyone. If that’s the case with Auntie, I don’t think that she did anything wrong. Why should she have to get a special card for one grump? If she bought that card especially for **Homebrew** , he does have reason to be upset, very good reason. I don’t have enough information to put _my_ rightous indignation in the correct direction.
Haj
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### Author:  [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/74 "2004-12-23T03:13:58Z")
Ok, so it’s not exactly on topic, but it is to do with cards and offensive religious sentiments…
My brother and his wife (a young couple, 25 & 23) were killed in a car accident this summer. Of course my family got a large number of cards expressing sympathy and condolances. My family is also very devoutly mormon (I am not, leaving mormonism after being raised in it). One of the cards receieved was from my ex-husband’s father, a devout mormon and a seminary teacher (teaches mormon ‘religious studies’ to high-school aged kids). One of the main beliefs of mormonism is that the most ‘righteous’ mormons get to go to the most wonderful of heavens after they die.
I know it’s a lot of setup, but this card consisted of my ex-father-in-law declaring something along the lines of ‘I’m jealous, they got let out of ‘class’ early!’…
:rolleyes:
I was _this close_ to removing the card from the mail when I opened it - what parent needs to be told that someone is JEALOUS that their child died AT 25 IN A HORRIFIC CAR ACCIDENT?!
Jesus, it STILL makes me fume when I think about it, 7 months later.
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/75 "2004-12-23T03:16:12Z")
> [@Maendosa](#):
>
> Jesus, it STILL makes me fume when I think about it, 7 months later.
But why? Don’t you respect his beliefs?
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/76 "2004-12-23T03:27:14Z")
> [@Loopydude](#):
>
> But why? Don’t you respect his beliefs?
While I’m tempted to give this a 😉 for good example, it also serves in the reverse, respecting a person != being polite, nor does respecting a person = respecting their beliefs inherently. You can do all or just some, but still.
Her brother is dead 7 months ago, a little less bouncy perhaps?
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### Author:  [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/77 "2004-12-23T03:33:34Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> While I’m tempted to give this a 😉 for good example, it also serves in the reverse, respecting a person != being polite, nor does respecting a person = respecting their beliefs inherently. You can do all or just some, but still.
>
> Her brother is dead 7 months ago, a little less bouncy perhaps?
Oh, I think, most of the time, I’m a tiny bit past the raw grief of it all. I can get the humor. Still, I’d no sooner think it’s appropriate for him to ‘celebrate’ the death of my brother than I’d feel it was appropriate to send a card with the sentiment ‘Don’t cry, you can make more!’ to a newly miscarried mother.
Homebrew, you have my understanding 😉
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/78 "2004-12-23T03:49:47Z")
**Shaolin** , you’re right, and **Maendosa** , I really don’t mean to rub a raw wound. I talk about my “mother” a lot on this board, but, in fact, she’s my stepmother. My real mother died of cancer when I was a kid, so I have some familiarity with the process of grieving a loved one’s untimely demise. My guess, based on the absurdity of some folks’ concept of “respect”, is you’d know exactly what I meant. I got (and still do get, oddly enough) a fair amount of insulting religious pablum, doled out with predictable inanity, assuring me that my Mom is in “a better place”. Idiots.
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### Author:  [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/79 "2004-12-23T06:55:51Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Now, now, **XJetgirlX** is having a dramatic moment protecting the True Faith, why spoil her fun?
Actually, no, she never did.
Her posts attempted to make the point that the holiday season is a religious time for many people, and they send greetings with _their_ religious beliefs on them to others, and that it’s foolish for the recipient to get upset when they receive these cards and to interpret them as an attack on their own beliefs or lack thereof.
Now, I believe her arguments are misplaced in this thread, as the story **Homebrew** describes is clearly one of witnessing, the card _did_ have ulterior motives attached, and he’s had plenty of history with this relative that makes it clear that the card did have a hidden meaning. So it’s a case of valid argument, wrong venue.
It’s not defending Christianity, however. She never came down one way or the other in this thread about what her religious beliefs are, if any. And it was apparently a wasted argument on the OP, since _the person who started a Pit thread on the topic_ has said a simple “Merry Christmas” card would’ve just been fine; he doesn’t see why the message couldn’t have been a genuine greeting but instead had to be a religious tirade.
In other words, it sounds to me like two people arguing at each other about practicing tolerance for other people’s religious beliefs when they’re both saying the same thing.
But don’t let me stop anyone from using the thread as a pulpit for talking about the evils of Christianity, the ignorance of theists, the incompatibility of evolution and religion ( :rolleyes: ), and how the only acceptable recourse is to insult and demean other people’s religious beliefs. I mean, why spoil their fun?
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### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/80 "2004-12-23T07:18:47Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> I think you ought to send something appropriately atheistic back, about how God is a lie, there’s no such thing, and why that is, something very similar in nature to the card she sent you. The preaching stops really fast, you’d be surprised.
>
> If that fails, find a nice card for Easter with no text in it at all, and a picture of Christ crucified on the front, and jot the note “I’m glad” inside and sign your name.
:rolleyes:
If you think this would be appropriate, I don’t see how most of the other folks in this thread are ever going to come to an understanding with you. I don’t like this notion that equates not being Christian with aggressive opposition to it. Homebrew’s said nothing to indicate that he is hostile towards religious types at all, and he clearly indicated he’s got no troubles with religious messages in cards. There’s a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble. When you attack him for demanding the latter, you’re fighting a strawman.
But like I said, if you think sending out greeting cards attempting to tear apart another’s religion is a good idea, I can’t imagine you’ll get much company in that. I certainly would stop associating with anyone who sent out blasphemous or otherwise cruel Christmas cards. Basic respect for others’ beliefs means not trying constantly to change them, and if you can’t see your way to believing what you like and granting others the right to do so in peace, well, please don’t put me on your Christmas card list.
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