# Evangelical Christmas Cards.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 22, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172 "2004-12-22T16:24:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/81 "2004-12-23T13:17:40Z")
> [@Excalibre](#):
>
> :rolleyes:
> If you think this would be appropriate, I don’t see how most of the other folks in this thread are ever going to come to an understanding with you. I don’t like this notion that equates not being Christian with aggressive opposition to it.
First of all, it’s a thread about a Christmas card, and second that’s not agressive opposition, and third, way to be a lazy asshole and just pick _one_ post to single out about what kind of card to send back. Like Cthulu Santa and the Anti-Christ were really appropriate by your standards, but I totally crossed the line.
Did you actually take a look at what my card suggestions said? The atheistic card might actually fall into **Homebrew** ’s honest belief about the universe, and might make a decent Christmas card if you put some thought into it. The Easter card was hostile, and I credit **Homebrew** with enough intellect to decide whether it’s appropriate to send to his aunt, or whether that would be too much.
If you don’t get that concept, or the obvious lack of seriousness in that suggestion, I don’t care if you come to an understanding with me. You may have to learn to accept the fact that some things might be beyond your understanding.
If the Easter card concept was blasphemous, insulting to anyone in particular’s religion or otherwise in poor taste, I’d like to remind them that I’m under no obligation to _like_ Jesus. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the atheist belief system, in which Jesus was a liar, all his apostles were liars, and they conspired to ruin everything fun forever, and have nearly succeeded\*.
Also, under my freedom of belief concept, they are welcome to believe that I’m not a nice person, and not like me either. For the record, I’m a living breathing human being, and Jesus died 2000 years ago, so there’s little possibility of hurting his feelings, and, if as Christians suppose, he is in fact sitting at a throne waiting to toss me into a pit, I think the hostility is doubly warranted.
> [@](#):
>
> Homebrew’s said nothing to indicate that he is hostile towards religious types at all, and he clearly indicated he’s got no troubles with religious messages in cards. There’s a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble. When you attack him for demanding the latter, you’re fighting a strawman.
No I’m not, yes he does, and yes he did. He did, in fact, have a problem with a religious message in a card. He got a religious card, he had a problem. Fight back the stupid and take control again.
There’s a difference between not being Christian and demanding that others allow him to live in a secular bubble, yes. But say you’ve got a highly religious Aunt, who preaches all year, and then Christmas comes along… SUPRISE!! OMG! It’s a highly religious card! That’s not a strawman, it’s incompetance. It’s what I’d expect from Donald Rumsfeld after he gets his card from W.
My suggestion, however painful it may have been to you, was not overly serious. I was simply making a point that perhaps he should edge out his atheistic tendencies a bit more, and have fun with it.
FTR, sending an atheistic holiday card to everyone isn’t hostile, blasphemous or wrong, it’s what I believe inside a card. Like it’s just so fucking ugly to try and send _that_ out to people. Start not associating with me early, and STFU.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/82 "2004-12-23T13:19:44Z")
- This is the authors personal opinion, and in no way reflects the conspiracy of international atheism, their views, or the views of any select individuals beyond the author’s own scope.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/83 "2004-12-23T14:25:44Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#):
>
> In other words, it sounds to me like two people arguing at each other about practicing tolerance for other people’s religious beliefs when they’re both saying the same thing.
Well, no, they’re not saying thew same thing. **Homebrew** doesn’t want to get preached at, and **XJetgirlX** is saying that he’s wrong to feel that way.
> [@](#):
>
> But don’t let me stop anyone from using the thread as a pulpit for talking about the evils of Christianity, the ignorance of theists, the incompatibility of evolution and religion ( :rolleyes: ), and how the only acceptable recourse is to insult and demean other people’s religious beliefs. I mean, why spoil their fun?
[/quote]
Nobody, not even me, has said anything of the sort in this thread. Besides, isn’t Christmas the time for building snowmen and not strawmen?
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/84 "2004-12-23T16:44:03Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> While I’m tempted to give this a 😉 for good example, it also serves in the reverse, respecting a person != being polite, nor does respecting a person = respecting their beliefs inherently. You can do all or just some, but still.
You’re right that respecting a person doesn’t necessarily equate to respecting their beliefs.
But respecting a person DOES imply treating them with respect. And that, in turn, almost invariably implies treating them with basic politeness and courtesy. (The exceptions are stuff like not bothering to ask before you push someone out of the way of an oncoming car. If we exclude stuff like that, we can ditch the ‘almost’.)
On another note: **Homebrew** , while they didn’t get these cards at Hallmark, could they have been right off the rack at the local “Christian” bookstore? If that’s the case, then they may not have had to seek these cards out. That still doesn’t make the cards any more pleasant, but at least they wouldn’t have gone nearly so far out of their way to be unpleasant.
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### Author:  [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/85 "2004-12-23T18:11:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> In another note: Homebrew, while they didn’t get these cards at Hallmark, could they have been right off the rack at the local “Christian” bookstore? If that’s the case, then they may not have had to seek these cards out. That still doesn’t make the cards any more pleasant, but at least they wouldn’t have gone nearly so far out of their way to be unpleasant.
I don’t go into those, so I have no idea if they carry this type of card. I guess it’s possible that it off the shelf instead of ordered directly from [dayspring.com](http://dayspring.com) (the card maker). It’s still annoying. BTW, **Dog80** is correct about the full text.
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### Author:  [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/86 "2004-12-23T19:38:40Z")
Most people send out cards that express their personalities and viewpoints. That’s why I can count on getting a cat card from one friend, something darkly funny and sarcastic from another, and something rather religious from a third. It’s just their personalities coming through. And (for good or ill) your aunt’s card is just her personality and viewpoint coming through. She’s a zealot, and witnessing is her way of life.
Assuming, of course, that she did like most people and bought a big ol’ box and sent everybody the exact same thing. I mean, if she’s sending all the Christians on her list the same card, it’s really reaching to call it an attempt to convert people or an attack on your atheism. Most of the recipients are, after all, already converted, and it seems unlikely she’d buy and send a whole box of these things just on your account.
In such a case, the rant basically comes down to either you not liking your aunt’s personality or you being pissy that she didn’t go buy you a special non-preachy card. The former is perfectly understandable. Everyone’s got a relative or twelve whose personality they don’t much care for (Uncle Jimmy, the whole family is looking at you), and zealots tend to be extra irritating. But to be irritated that someone for being who and what they are…it’s human, but not really all that reasonable, ya know? The latter situation–well, I just don’t think you’re that full of yourself, so we won’t talk about that one.
On the other hand, if she did indeed go get just this one especially for you, then pit away. She’s an asshole of the assholiest ilk and needs an attitude adjustment right upside the head.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/87 "2004-12-23T19:50:39Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> - This is the authors personal opinion, and in no way reflects the conspiracy of international atheism, their views, or the views of any select individuals beyond the author’s own scope.
I just want to re-emphasize this point. Keep in mind, folks, that **Shaolinrabbit** ’s definitions of atheism (and, for that matter, respect and civility) are his and his alone.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/88 "2004-12-23T19:55:23Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I just want to re-emphasize this point. Keep in mind, folks, that **Shaolinrabbit** ’s definitions of atheism (and, for that matter, respect and civility) are his and his alone.
Wrong again, **Miller** , my definition of atheism can be summed up rather simply:
“There is no God.”
That’s pretty standard. My definitions of respect and civility are both in the dictionary, I suggest you pick up a copy.
My _behavior_ however, is mine alone. I respect what I choose, and I am civil when I choose.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/89 "2004-12-23T20:00:28Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> My definitions of respect and civility are both in the dictionary, I suggest you pick up a copy.
Sorry, I meant they jibe with the dictionary. I didn’t write websters. 😃
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### Author:  [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/90 "2004-12-24T03:46:11Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Well, no, they’re not saying thew same thing. **Homebrew** doesn’t want to get preached at, and **XJetgirlX** is saying that he’s wrong to feel that way.
**Homebrew** said he didn’t want to get preached at, but that a simple Merry Christmas card would’ve been fine; in other words (as I interpreted it), he doesn’t agree with the religion but would not interpret a simple expression of the religion as such a threat. I don’t think anyone in the thread is saying that witnessing to someone who doesn’t want to hear it is ever appropriate, no matter what time of year. So there’s no excusing the aunt’s behavior. But I can, for example, receive someone’s wishing me a simple Happy Hannukkah without feeling the need to counter with anti-Judaism sentiments.
I interpreted **XJETGIRLX** as objecting to that type of behavior and a plea for more religious tolerance from both sides. As I said, I believe her basic argument was valid but it was directed at the wrong person, because **Homebrew** already was showing as much religious tolerance as he should be expected to. Whatever the case, she was not defending The One True Faith, as you accused her.
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Nobody, not even me, has said anything of the sort in this thread. Besides, isn’t Christmas the time for building snowmen and not strawmen?
Of course not. Cute chipmunks that say “Hail Satan” are in no way implying an insult to Christianity, nor are they in any way implying that a religious message is meaningless cloying glurge. Neither was the suggestion to send back a Darwin card implying that Christianity and evolution are completley mutually exclusive. Must’ve been my mistake.
And that’s all I can say and still honor the terms of our agreement. Merry Christmas, everyone! Take that sentiment however you want.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/91 "2004-12-24T03:49:10Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> Sorry, I meant they jibe with the dictionary. I didn’t write websters. 😃
Civility, like in manners, right? See I was brought up that religion and politics were not well mannered topics for casual conversation (or greeting cards). So even “Jesus is the Reason for the Season” (have one of those from a relative) is boarderline poor manners to send.
You want to wish people joy for the holidays THEY celebrate. It isn’t about you. Which is why I don’t wish my Jewish friends Merry Christmas, even though I celebrate it. Far as I can tell, not much Merry about eating Chinese while 90% of the American people celebrate around you. Seems rather…ill spritied…to wish some a happy holiday they don’t celebrate.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/92 "2004-12-24T12:38:19Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> Wrong again, **Miller** , my definition of atheism can be summed up rather simply:
>
> “There is no God.”
That isn’t even a doxastic statement.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/93 "2004-12-24T13:09:25Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> Far as I can tell, not much Merry about eating Chinese while 90% of the American people celebrate around you. Seems rather…ill spritied…to wish some a happy holiday they don’t celebrate.
I agree with you quite often, but disagree here. A day need not be celebrated to merit a wish for happiness. I don’t celebrate the Chinese New Year, but I certainly would appreciate a wish that I be happy on that day.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/94 "2004-12-24T13:54:00Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> That isn’t even a doxastic statement.
Perhaps not, but I believe it. 😉
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### Author:  [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/95 "2004-12-24T14:12:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> That isn’t even a doxastic statement.
What an amazingly manustupratory observation.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/96 "2004-12-24T14:18:00Z")
> [@Shaolinrabbit](#):
>
> Perhaps not, but I believe it. 😉
And that, of course, was one – which was **Lib** ’s point.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/97 "2004-12-24T14:29:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> I agree with you quite often, but disagree here. A day need not be celebrated to merit a wish for happiness. I don’t celebrate the Chinese New Year, but I certainly would appreciate a wish that I be happy on that day.
Let’s see if I can put it differently. On my birthday people send me birthday cards. I don’t send them birthday cards wishing them to have a nice day on my birthday. I don’t have a birthday party for myself (Brainiac4 does, I spent six years trying to teach him it was poor manners before I gave up - he’d disagree that I’ve given up as I continue to “remind” him every year, he doesn’t care, though he now puts the disclaimer on the invites that “its just a party I happen to hold near my birthday”).
Greetings are about the recipient, not the sender. Which is why we say “How are you?” To send a card even vaguely evangelical (unless you happen to know the recipient shares your beliefs) is about you and your beliefs, not about them - regardless of how much you try and justify it by saying you are trying to “save their soul.” And frankly, I really hope there isn’t a soul out there that can be saved by the text on a greeting card.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/98 "2004-12-24T14:59:31Z")
> [@Polycarp](#):
>
> And that, of course, was one – which was **Lib** ’s point.
I know, and I responded deliberately. The point of the original statement in quotes, rather than simple text was that it was _ascribed_ to an unknown speaker, making it by nature doxastic. I could simply say, there is no God, then being ascribed to myself, and it would also be by nature of the reader’s interpretation doxastic. I chose, however, the general ambiguously ascribed statement as a statement which I agree with.
Both the statements “There is a God.” and “I am God” would not be technically doaxastic statements, but would be understood to be by the person reading or hearing those statements.
To allay any further confusion in this matter, I will withdraw my previous definition and supply the following:
Atheist: Those who do not believe in the existence of deity or deities.
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### Author:  [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/99 "2004-12-24T15:10:14Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#):
>
> What an amazingly manustupratory observation.
😃
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### Author:  [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)
#### Post date: [December 24, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/100 "2004-12-24T18:12:24Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#):
>
> What an amazingly manustupratory observation.
Really? I found it rather floccillatory, actually.
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