# Evangelical Christmas Cards.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [December 22, 2004, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172 "2004-12-22T16:24:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/121 "2004-12-27T15:23:20Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Lordy, even during a time when you’re flinging out drunken glad tidings to all and sundry, you cannot stop yourself from taking a jab at me. Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean you have to lash out at it like a redneck barking about gay marriage destroying America. ~B(x) and B(~x) are fundamentally different statements.
I understand the statements; what you fail to understand is that the thread was turning amicable and you had to come in starting trouble. If you want to debate the definition of atheism, start your own thread, don’t hijack this one.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/122 "2004-12-27T15:30:21Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> I understand the statements; what you fail to understand is that the thread was turning amicable and you had to come in starting trouble. If you want to debate the definition of atheism, start your own thread, don’t hijack this one.
Contrary to what you might think, just because you plop your ass down somewhere doesn’t mean you’re the new owner. Look out your window. See all those bipedal creatures? Those are “other people”. I responded to a statement made by someone who isn’t you. Now that you’ve let out your big fart, why don’t you just move along?
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/123 "2004-12-27T15:32:16Z")
And FTR, nonexistence of belief in X (~B(x) and belief in the nonexistence of X (B(~x) are only different in terms, not in substance. To a layman, “I don’t believe in Jesus’s existence” and “I believe Jesus does not exist” are identical in meaning. Sure, there’s a difference in the statements’ denotation, but this is not a formal logic debating society, so keep your angels’-dancing-on-the heads-ofpins arguments to yourself, or at least in a more appropriate forum.
And you may want to consider who you condescend to next time. You’re not nearly as intelligent as you think you are.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/124 "2004-12-27T15:39:29Z")
> [@Gobear](#):
>
> And FTR, nonexistence of belief in X (~B(x) and belief in the nonexistence of X (B(~x) are only different in terms, not in substance.
Submoronic. You’re like those guys in math class who didn’t understand the difference between subtraction and negation.
> [@](#):
>
> And you may want to consider who you condescend to next time.
Whom.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/125 "2004-12-27T15:41:20Z")
Oh, and one more thing–until you can restrain yourself from snapping off strings of obscenities at the slightest provocation, you might also wish to shut up with the Jesus talk. You set a spectacularly bad example of Christian behavior, and your incessant claims to spiritual superiority ring false, like sounding brass or tinkling cymbals. Before you spout off more about God and sneer at those who don’t swallow your use of logical notation as a bludgeon, I urge you to meditate on Matthew 7:2-5.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/126 "2004-12-27T15:46:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Submoronic. You’re like those guys in math class who didn’t understand the difference between subtraction and negation.
And I’m right. The terms are different but theree’s no real difference in between them in the common understanding of your average speaker. You don’t seem to understand that pedantry isn’t wisdom, and your insufferable egoism is not of Jesus.
> [@](#):
>
> Whom.
You miss the point. “Whom” is correct (“to whom” is better), but nobody says it anymore. It’s a dying bit of English that has outlived its purpose. Again, you think pedantry shows intelligence, when it portrays quite the reverse.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/127 "2004-12-27T16:28:56Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> And I’m right. The terms are different but theree’s no real difference in between them in the common understanding of your average speaker. You don’t seem to understand that pedantry isn’t wisdom, and your insufferable egoism is not of Jesus.
Frankly, I consider the man who presumes his presence is required in a discussion that does not concern him to be egoistic.
> [@](#):
>
> You miss the point. “Whom” is correct (“to whom” is better), but nobody says it anymore. It’s a dying bit of English that has outlived its purpose. Again, you think pedantry shows intelligence, when it portrays quite the reverse.
So says the man who berates me with picayune and moralistic speeches about pedantry.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/128 "2004-12-27T16:40:20Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Frankly, I consider the man who presumes his presence is required in a discussion that does not concern him to be egoistic.
> So says the man who berates me with picayune and moralistic speeches about pedantry.
Dude, it’s the holidays. Drop the 'tude and get happy.
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/129 "2004-12-27T17:38:09Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Dude, it’s the holidays. Drop the 'tude and get happy.
😃 That’s like slapping a man and telling him to stop blushing. When you take the 'tude away, it will be gone.
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### Author:  [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/130 "2004-12-27T18:09:23Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#):
>
> He can vent all he likes. I’m still free to think him an asshole for bitching about somebody trying to be nice.
Religious witnessing is not nice. It’s judgmental, arrogant, hateful and evil. Fuck all proselytizers.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/131 "2004-12-27T20:45:39Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> Submoronic. You’re like those guys in math class who didn’t understand the difference between subtraction and negation.
I think you may have just called 99% of the English speaking world “submoronic,” since I doubt there are any but the very, very few who have studied formal logic who understand the difference between “I don’t believe in Jesus’s existence” and “I believe Jesus does not exist.” And I have to admit, I’m not one of them. From a language point of view, the two statements are functionally identical.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/132 "2004-12-27T21:02:21Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I think you may have just called 99% of the English speaking world “submoronic,” since I doubt there are any but the very, very few who have studied formal logic who understand the difference between “I don’t believe in Jesus’s existence” and “I believe Jesus does not exist.” And I have to admit, I’m not one of them. From a language point of view, the two statements are functionally identical.
Essentially, **Lib’s** li’l formal logic operators indicate the difference between weak atheism (I don’t believe in X deity, that is it’s not proven to me so I don’t believe) and strong atheism (I believe that no deity does or can exist). That **Lib** thinks this is significant to anyone but himself is telling. He has long since lost the ability to talk to people where they are and communicate with people meaningfully.
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### Author:  [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/133 "2004-12-27T21:11:45Z")
> [@XJETGIRLX](#):
>
> I don’t see how giving someone a card (that they can do with what they please) is ‘shoving’ your religion down someone’s throat.
>
> Christ almighty, I understand that he’s not religious, but you can’t dictate how other people celebrate their religious holidays. If his family wants to send out religious holiday cards, more power to 'em. If he doesn’t agree with the sentiment, he can drop it in the trash - no skin off his back.
It doesn’t sound like a greeting. It sounds like a hail Mary last effort to recruit the one godless heathen they haven’t been able to convert! Kee-rist! It’s heavier than a Sunday sermon! No greeting. It’s a soapbox opportunity. Ick.
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/134 "2004-12-27T21:41:12Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I think you may have just called 99% of the English speaking world “submoronic,” since I doubt there are any but the very, very few who have studied formal logic who understand the difference between “I don’t believe in Jesus’s existence” and “I believe Jesus does not exist.” And I have to admit, I’m not one of them. From a language point of view, the two statements are functionally identical.
Ditto here. While mathematically I understand the difference between the two statements,_language is NOT math_. While I know the negative of a negative is a positive, I also know that “I ain’t got no money” is NOT trying to say “I have money.”
While logicians may have fun playing their semantic games, no sane user of the English language makes a functional distinction between “I don’t believe that X exists” and “I believe that X does not exist.” Repeat: language is not math, and does not follow formal rules of logic.
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### Author:  [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)
#### Post date: [December 27, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evangelical-christmas-cards/281172/135 "2004-12-27T21:51:13Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> That **Lib** thinks this is significant to anyone but himself is telling. He has long since lost the ability to talk to people where they are and communicate with people meaningfully.
Why do you want to take a crutch from a lame man?
😉
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