# Even been a legal code in history that punished criminals AND their families for the perps crimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 22, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907 "2012-06-22T02:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/21 "2012-06-22T11:58:48Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Thats war/occupied territory not domestic legal code. The US did something similar in Vietnam, Iraq and also is doing something similar in Afghanistan. Is Isreal officially at war with the Palestinians? If not, then it’s a criminal punishment, regardless of whether it’s carried out by the army, the police, or the girl scouts. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/22 "2012-06-22T12:36:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > A woman I used to know was fined when her son repeatedly skipped school. For failure to uphold her duty of making sure the boy went to school. Yes, he was the one skipping, but she was the one responsible for having him in school. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/23 "2012-06-22T13:56:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Nazis enacted _Sippenhaft_ (family punishment) laws in 1944. These laws said family members could be punished for treason committed by a relative. (Treason being defined as attempting to overthrow Hitler or the Nazis.) Was it really necessary to Godwinize the thread? 🙂 > [@Diceman](#): > > Is Isreal officially at war with the Palestinians? If not, then it’s a criminal punishment, regardless of whether it’s carried out by the army, the police, or the girl scouts. Nope. We’re talking about codified law. Got a cite from the Israeli criminal code to back up your assertion? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/24 "2012-06-22T14:05:54Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > Israel punished the families of Palestinians accused of terrorism by destroying their homes. > [@Diceman](#): > > Is Israel officially at war with the Palestinians? If not, then it’s a criminal punishment, regardless of whether it’s carried out by the army, the police, or the girl scouts. IIRC, the process was that the home of a suicide bomber was bulldozed. In that culture, many people live with a larger extended family, so it was deliberately punishing the family (since most of the perp was not around to punish). It was an obvious attempt to dissuade sucide bombers, but for some reason flattening the house of a dozen innocent bystanders seemed to instead make the Palestinians even more anoyed at the invaders. Seems whether the bomber owned the house or not, whether in fact he had actually lived at his registered address recently, etc. was irrelevant data in the decision. I don’t recall the basis for this - whether it was court ordered, or (more likely) executive order from the military occupation authority. Also, legally, can a person be convicted of a crime if they are already dead? Since from what I recall reading the news, the “punishment” happened only a few days after the bombing, I doubt there was any significant legal proceedings, unless it was one of those fast and loose military tribunals. Plus, since Israel is a democratic western country according to their website, I cannot imagine such a “law” actually being on the books. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/25 "2012-06-22T14:20:31Z")
The only cite I can provide the the following is the book _Shogun_, but I have found that modern historical novelists strive for accuracy. In pre-modern Japan entire families, including children of any age, could be liable for the crimes of any member, an example being that of execution by burning of arsonists’ families. Also, early in the book a man was summarily cut down by sword for disrespecting a Samurai, and his family was fined an impossible amount, which it was understood the entire village would have to contribute to to make good on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/26 "2012-06-22T14:42:54Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > True about the measure but AFAIK it was not _legislated_ at the time - at that late stage the Nazis did not bother with legislation but instituted such measures by executive decree. According to _The Family Punishment in Nazi Germany: Sippenhaft, Terror and Myth_ by Robert Loeffe, it was an unofficial practice for the most part. But it was officially codified in 1944 and 1945 as a series of military directives that applied to members of the armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/27 "2012-06-22T16:55:40Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I don’t recall the basis for this - whether it was court ordered, or (more likely) executive order from the military occupation authority. Also, legally, can a person be convicted of a crime if they are already dead? Since from what I recall reading the news, the “punishment” happened only a few days after the bombing, I doubt there was any significant legal proceedings, unless it was one of those fast and loose military tribunals. Actually, this raises another question: does Isreal actually know the identities of all of those suicide bombers, or were some of those houses picked more-or-less randomly because _somebody_ needs to be punished? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/28 "2012-06-22T18:34:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. We’re talking about codified law. Got a cite from the Israeli criminal code to back up your assertion? No we are not just talking about codified law. See the OP and post #17. It is amazing how someone can always find a nitpick to prove that Israel has never ever done anything wrong. > [@md2000](#): > > IIRC, the process was that the home of a suicide bomber was bulldozed. In that culture, many people live with a larger extended family, so it was deliberately punishing the family (since most of the perp was not around to punish). It was an obvious attempt to dissuade sucide bombers, but for some reason flattening the house of a dozen innocent bystanders seemed to instead make the Palestinians even more anoyed at the invaders. Seems whether the bomber owned the house or not, whether in fact he had actually lived at his registered address recently, etc. was irrelevant data in the decision. > > I don’t recall the basis for this - whether it was court ordered, or (more likely) executive order from the military occupation authority. Also, legally, can a person be convicted of a crime if they are already dead? Since from what I recall reading the news, the “punishment” happened only a few days after the bombing, I doubt there was any significant legal proceedings, unless it was one of those fast and loose military tribunals. > > Plus, since Israel is a democratic western country according to their website, I cannot imagine such a “law” actually being on the books. Oh, well that makes it alright then. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/29 "2012-06-22T18:41:27Z")
Would it count as punishment if kids of a convicted single parent were put into foster care? ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/30 "2012-06-22T22:18:11Z")
Some people try to treat the Bible as a [legal code](http://bible.cc/exodus/20-5.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/31 "2012-06-23T02:27:46Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Yes. At English common law, someone found guilty of treason lost not only their property but the right to pass property through inheritance by “corruption of blood.” Corruption of blood by attainder of treason is forbidden by the U.S. Constitution. I understood this was the reason accused people ended up being ‘pressed’ to death – stones piled on boards across them. This was a technique used to get people to plead guilty or not guilty, because English law didn’t allow the trial to go forward without a plea. But if the trial went forward, and they were found guilty, a probable punishment included death for them and forfeiture of their property, which would leave their spouse & children destitute. If instead, they died when being ‘pressed’, the family still inherited the property. Also, during the Cold War, many of the communist countries punished family members of people who defected. i remember when they first started allowing East Berlin people to go to West Berlin to visit relatives for Christmas, the whole family couldn’t go at once – some had to stay behind so the others wouldn’t defect. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/32 "2012-06-23T03:26:21Z")
It is my understanding that under English Common Law a husband was considered legally responsible for any crimes his wife committed against a third party while he was present, as the presumption was that they were a single legal entity and he was the deciderer. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/33 "2012-06-23T03:46:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It is my understanding that under English Common Law a husband was considered legally responsible for any crimes his wife committed against a third party while he was present, as the presumption was that they were a single legal entity and he was the deciderer. Yes, but I think there’s a difference here. These laws were essentially treating the husband as an accomplice to his wife’s crimes, on the assumption he must have known about and condoned her activities. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/34 "2012-06-23T04:35:10Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > No we are not just talking about codified law. See the OP and post #17. > > It is amazing how someone can always find a nitpick to prove that Israel has never ever done anything wrong. > > Oh, well that makes it alright then. If you want to educate yourself on the matter: > **[Israeli demolition of Palestinian property](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)** > > Demolition of Palestinian property is a method Israel has used in the Israeli-occupied territories since they came under its control in the Six-Day War, as well as in Israel proper, to achieve various aims. Broadly speaking, demolitions can be classified as either administrative, punitive/dissuasive and as part of military operations. The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions estimated that Israel had razed 55,048 Palestinian structures as of 2022. In the first several months of the o Admi... This describes it pretty well, from both sides of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/35 "2012-06-23T18:47:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you want to educate yourself on the matter: > > [Israeli demolition of Palestinian property - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict) > > This describes it pretty well, from both sides of the issue. There is no other side. People are being punished, without even due process, for crimes they didn’t commit. That is evil. It is a human rights violation. It’s good to know you only support human rights when it is convenient. > [@In a libertarian society...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/492): > > That’s where we differ. I (and quite a few other people, including the founders of the United States) think that rights are non-negotiable. As in “inalienable”. No one can take away the man’s rights except the man himself, by his own decision. > [@In a libertarian society...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-a-libertarian-society/599458/530): > > No, that would be a violation of my right to property. See it’s that pesky “inalienable rights” issue that you’re still having a problem with. Pesky indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/36 "2012-06-23T20:17:34Z")
BTW the most drastic and longstanding practice in this regard seems to have been the [Nine Familial Exterminations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations) in China. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/37 "2012-06-23T22:38:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > There is no other side. People are being punished, without even due process, for crimes they didn’t commit. That is evil. > > It is a human rights violation. It’s good to know you only support human rights when it is convenient. > > Pesky indeed. Israel does not have US Constitution as the supreme law of the land. In fact, British Mandate laws are still valid in Judea and Samaria - and British mandate law number 119 covers house demolitions. In fact, US does have something similar. If someone living in your house deals drugs, your house can be confiscated under RICOH statutes. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/38 "2012-06-23T23:33:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Was it really necessary to Godwinize the thread? 🙂 Godwin’s Law isn’t relevant because the OP asks about laws throughout history. IMO, Godwin’s Law is nothing if not tiresome. A thread about swastikas couldn’t mention Nazis for fear of Godwin’s Law showing up in the next post. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/39 "2012-06-23T23:37:34Z")
Quick correction to my above post: it’s RICO statutes. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907/40 "2012-06-24T00:59:58Z")
I might add that the Biblcal injunction “an eye for an eye,” endlessly cited as [often Jewish as opposed to Catholic] as moral depravity, is actually an ethically gentle rebuke to the OP and the cases cited here. In Afghanistan, say, the you-killed-my-clansmen, I-kill-four-of-yours word thereby be prevented. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-been-a-legal-code-in-history-that-punished-criminals-and-their-families-for-the-perps-crimes/625907.md?page=3)