# Even if God exists, it is not important whether you believe in God or not **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190 "2009-02-03T01:14:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/41 "2009-02-03T07:03:08Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > No. One’s _beleifs_ about one’s god are based on one’s holy books. The reality of one’s god may be (and almost certainly is) wildly different. Good point, but not sure I agree. One’s holy books are written by man, so the beliefs begin the story of one’s god. Plus, since man writes this, then the _fantasy_ of one’s god may be and almost certainly is different. Really, has anyone ever told anyone their depiction of god that actually matches someone else’s? For me, not as of yet, and I ask often. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/42 "2009-02-03T07:07:43Z")
As a believing, albeit not very observant Jew, I tend to agree with the OP. The Almighty doesn’t need us to believe in Him/Her. The purpose of belief and of organized religion is to provide certain social and personal benefits. I do happen to believe that religion, and even more so the \*concept \*of a higher power, have been a net boon to human culture, although I’m sure many people here would disagree with me. I certainly don’t believe that faith has any direct influence on one’s “immortal soul” - what’s important is how we treat our fellow human beings. If heaven exists, I expect to find as many - surprised - atheists there as there are here, if not more. In fact, I’m starting to believe that humanity is approaching the point in its social evolution in which religion, or at least religion as we know it, is no longer of any benefit to us. If this is the case then obviously God will not want us to believe in Him - and we should obey His wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/43 "2009-02-03T08:03:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As a believing, albeit not very observant Jew, I tend to agree with the OP. The Almighty doesn’t need us to believe in Him/Her. The purpose of belief and of organized religion is to provide certain social and personal benefits. I do happen to believe that religion, and even more so the \*concept \*of a higher power, have been a net boon to human culture, although I’m sure many people here would disagree with me. I certainly don’t believe that faith has any direct influence on one’s “immortal soul” - what’s important is how we treat our fellow human beings. If heaven exists, I expect to find as many - surprised - atheists there as there are here, if not more. > > In fact, I’m starting to believe that humanity is approaching the point in its social evolution in which religion, or at least religion as we know it, is no longer of any benefit to us. If this is the case then obviously God will not want us to believe in Him - and we should obey His wishes. Alessan, fantastic! I’m with you on the future of religion, and I agree with most of the OP. If there’s a god who actually created us, we most certainly created religion as we know it. If a god that loves us exists, it would want us to end it before it uses that NT rapture/apocalypse story on us and make a story a fact. (???) Meh. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![stucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@stucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stucky)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/44 "2009-02-03T09:27:41Z")
!. God has always existed. 1. God created the entire universe and holds it together with His will. 2. God created man out of love and wants a personal relationship with man. 3. God gave man free will to believe or not believe. 4. God gave us evidence of His existance. 5. Everything God does He does with love. If something bad happens it is either caused by Satan, allowed by God to happen to help us learn to depend upon Him, or done (usually to nations) as punishment for lack of faith or sinful acts. 6. God works every bad thing to end up good if we have faith in Him. 7. Sin entered this world through Satan. God is righteous and cannot abide any sin, therefore man cannot enter Heaven because all persons are sinful. God made a way for man to receive salvation for eternal life in Heaven by becoming a man himself, sinless and paid the penalty for all of mankinds sins, past, present and future by His crucifixion on the cross being innocent of any crime. Jesus, in His nature as a man, is the only one that could pay our sin debt because of his innocence. 8. God gave us plenty of evidence of this truth, however, we accept His Grace through faith. His gift of salvation is freely given. There is NOTHING we can do to deserve salvation but Believe. 9. Soon you will see true believers in Jesus disappear from the Earth, probably within the year. This will be further evidence that the Gospel of Jesus is the truth. Satan will try to decieve you when this happens but remember this thread and consider it. You will still be offered salvation if you become a true believer at that time, but time will be very short for you to declare your faith for when Jesus returns, for all to see in the sky, it will be too late. You will then be condemned to eternal death for your disbelief. 10. The choice is yours to make. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/45 "2009-02-03T11:02:34Z")
But what about steps 10 through 18!? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/46 "2009-02-03T11:11:28Z")
One reason might be not the adulation as such, but all those things which are linked with belief. That is, the belief itself may not be as important as what that belief leads to; someone could decide to do good works in the world, or gain something from prayer, because they believe in a god. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/47 "2009-02-03T11:14:57Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But what about steps 10 through 18!? I think God decided to spare us reading them. It’s a miracle! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/48 "2009-02-03T11:26:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > One reason might be not the adulation as such, but all those things which are linked with belief. That is, the belief itself may not be as important as what that belief leads to; someone could decide to do good works in the world, or gain something from prayer, because they believe in a god. Exactly. If belief in God helps me get through hard times, then belief is good. If belief in God leads you to believe that all men are created equal, then belief is also good. However, if belief in God makes you want to kill people who believe differently than you, find a new hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/49 "2009-02-03T14:38:50Z")
> [@GameHat](#): > > Nonsense. If God cares deeply about humans (having created them, after all) and if God knows that humans can only be happy when they know him, it will matter immensely whether they choose to seek him or choose to turn away. > > You are presupposing an impersonal and indifferent God. All the Abrahamic religions disagree with your presupposition. Yes, the OP didn’t limit it to just those religions; there are other ways people try to find God without having to read supposed holy works. It’s the personal god aspect that can often lead to its share of conflicts. And the The biblical god is indifferent in many places. I’m surprised most can even make it through the Pentateuch. Many of these stories are not fit for children to read. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" – Epicurus ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/50 "2009-02-03T14:55:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not to **God,** anyway. It might be psychologically (not spiritually) important to **you.** But why should God care what you think of Him, or whether you think of Him at all? Why should such as He be pleased by your worship, prayers or obedience, or disappointed by their absence? That’s like worrying about whether the ants in your farm **like** you. > > If God cares about religion at all, it is only because He is like a Roman emperor, and created us to fight for His amusement. That would explain a lot about human history, and even better than Original Sin would. God Loves us. He knows what is best for us, the worship of His is for our benefit, not His. But He wants the best for us, which includes our worship of Him. He gets saddened when we make choices that leads to a life that is less then what he wants for us. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/51 "2009-02-03T14:56:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But what about steps 10 through 18!? 1. Profit! 2. Profit!! 3. Profit!!! 4. Profit!!! 5. Profit!!! 6. Profit!!! 7. Profit!!! 8. Profit!!! 9. Total economic collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/52 "2009-02-03T16:28:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Even if God exists, it is not important whether you believe in God or not. > > Not to **God,** anyway. It seems to me you have it backwards. If God **doesn’t** exist, then it certainly can’t matter to God whether you believe in God or not. But if a God exists who cares about anything or anyone at all, it’s possible for God to care whether you believe in him, or what you believe about him, or what kind of relationship you have with him. > [@](#): > > It might be psychologically (not spiritually) important to **you.** But why should God care what you think of Him, or whether you think of Him at all? Why should such as He be pleased by your worship, prayers or obedience, or disappointed by their absence? That’s like worrying about whether the ants in your farm **like** you. You tell me why God or anyone else should care about anything, and then maybe I can tell you why God should care what you think of him. The question of what we should care about, and why, is a question about ultimate ends or values. If, as the [Westminster Catechism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Shorter_Catechism) says, “Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever,” then God cares about such things because that’s the reason he created us in the first place. > [@](#): > > If God cares about religion at all, it is only because He is like a Roman emperor, and created us to fight for His amusement. That would explain a lot about human history, and even better than Original Sin would. If you can imagine a God who created us to fight for his amusement, why can’t you imagine a God who created us to love and be loved by him? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/53 "2009-02-03T16:56:15Z")
> [@GameHat](#): > > Enumerate them? I’m making three: > > 1. God exists > > 2. God created humans > > 3. Humans can only be happy when in a relationship with God. Exactly. Only the first assumption is necessary for discussion of the question. If we define God as a being who made the universe, the does not imply He created anything in particular in it, including humans; He might simply have started the ball rolling, Deist-style, and waited to see what would happen (God so defined is not necessarily omniscient). As for the third assumption, it is completely unnecessary and unsupported except as an element of religious doctrine, and not of all religions’ doctrines. (And, come to think of it, why is it only humans who need a relationship with God to be happy? Why not animals and plants and bacteria?) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/54 "2009-02-03T16:59:47Z")
> [@stucky](#): > > Soon you will see true believers in Jesus disappear from the Earth, probably within the > year. Somehow that’s **always** “probably within the year.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/55 "2009-02-03T17:01:50Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > It’s the personal god aspect that can often lead to its share of conflicts. And the The biblical god is indifferent in many places. I’m surprised most can even make it through the Pentateuch. Many of these stories are not fit for children to read. And, OTOH, much of the Pentateuch is so **boring** only a God of abominable cruelty would expect anyone to read it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/56 "2009-02-03T17:03:24Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If, as the [Westminster Catechism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Shorter_Catechism) says, “Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever,” then God cares about such things because that’s the reason he created us in the first place. :eek: And **Satan** is supposed to be vain! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/57 "2009-02-03T17:33:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not to **God,** anyway. It might be psychologically (not spiritually) important to **you.** But why should God care what you think of Him, or whether you think of Him at all? Why should such as He be pleased by your worship, prayers or obedience, or disappointed by their absence? That’s like worrying about whether the ants in your farm **like** you. > > If God cares about religion at all, it is only because He is like a Roman emperor, and created us to fight for His amusement. That would explain a lot about human history, and even better than Original Sin would. I think this is interesting. I don’t think God wants our worship, prayers or obedience in any way associated with what we know as ego. I don’t think God becomes angry or vengeful when we worship other gods. That’s why I take issue with some Christian treatment of belief in Jesus. If you don’t accept Jesus as your personal Saviour nothing else matters. That sounds like Jesus is on a ego trip. It doesn’t make sense that God is concerned about a particular label or language. Allah, Great Spirit, Jehovah, Jesus, Mohamed, it makes no difference. The whole God is great and we are so undeserving thing seems way off as well. The problem may be that we do not understand our true nature and potential in the universe. God does, and our real connection to God is moving us in that direction. I don’t think that means God doesn’t care about us at all. I think God wants us to move forward and live our true potential. That’s what can make a relationship with God a positive thing for some. It becomes a vehicle for growth. The interesting thing is because God doesn’t care about being worshiped in any egotistical sense it isn’t necessary to believe or have that relationship in any religious context. It’s about our true intent and can express itself just as meaningfully in agnostic and atheistic terms as it can in religious terms. The quest for truth, peace, justice, compassion, the things that move mankind toward a better future does not have to be cloaked in religion. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/58 "2009-02-03T18:46:12Z")
> [@stucky](#): > > 1. God gave us plenty of evidence of this truth, however, we accept His Grace through faith. > His gift of salvation is freely given. There is NOTHING we can do to deserve salvation but > Believe. OK, but… the whole original point of this thread, it seems to me, was to ask _why_ #9 should be so. Why does God require us to believe in Him in order to be saved? I can understand why He would _want_ us to, but why make it an absolute condition? I, for one, would really like to get a genuine answer to this (and one that’s not circular, e.g., “God said so”, and doesn’t simply re-state the proposition in different words)… what are the actual theological grounds for the proposition that faith is a requirement, imposed upon us by God, for salvation? Some posters have suggested that faith is important because it leads to good works. While perhaps true, I don’t think this is the answer… at least, a lot of Christians believe that faith itself is the only condition for salvation – nothing else is necessary, nothing else is sufficient. And if faith is necessary, how much faith? Total, blind, unthinking faith? Faith marred by doubt, as Mother Teresa allegedly had? Does God draw a thin, bright line, with those a millimeter above enjoying eternal bliss and those a millimeter below suffering eternal agony? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/59 "2009-02-03T19:35:06Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It seems to me you have it backwards. If God **doesn’t** exist, then it certainly can’t matter to God whether you believe in God or not. He was only postulating that if God existed, it wouldn’t matter to Him if you believed or not. It’s not necessary for the OP to go through the entire gambit on the first post. Most people, if asked of what traits describe God, would certainly at least put in their definition, love and benevolence. If most humans find it in their heart not to get upset over petty stuff; we would expect no less of God. Conservative Christian theology aside, I just don’t think He’s going to get all that worked up about it. **Eskimo:** If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell? **Priest:** No, not if you did not know. **Eskimo:** Then why did you tell me? –Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek razncain ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190/60 "2009-02-03T19:44:26Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > OK, but… the whole original point of this thread, it seems to me, was to ask _why_ #9 should be so. Why does God require us to believe in Him in order to be saved? I can understand why He would _want_ us to, but why make it an absolute condition? I, for one, would really like to get a genuine answer to this (and one that’s not circular, e.g., “God said so”, and doesn’t simply re-state the proposition in different words)… what are the actual theological grounds for the proposition that faith is a requirement, imposed upon us by God, for salvation? Some posters have suggested that faith is important because it leads to good works. While perhaps true, I don’t think this is the answer… at least, a lot of Christians believe that faith itself is the only condition for salvation – nothing else is necessary, nothing else is sufficient. > > And if faith is necessary, how much faith? Total, blind, unthinking faith? Faith marred by doubt, as Mother Teresa allegedly had? Does God draw a thin, bright line, with those a millimeter above enjoying eternal bliss and those a millimeter below suffering eternal agony? Great point. I remember reading a book years ago about that and the question of justice. It made an impression on me. How can we conceive of a just compassionate God who sends good people who preform deeds of love and compassion to hell simply because they didn’t believe the correct things. The error IMHO is the the specifics of the perceived faith. When more dogmatic religious types say “you must have faith” they really mean “you should believe as I do” They don’t seem very willing to question the details of their own belief to see if their own faith could use some adjustments. Also this > [@](#): > > His gift of salvation is freely given. There is NOTHING we can do to deserve salvation but Believe. is looked at incorrectly as well. Yes, salvation {a poor word choice IMO} is freely given and we don’t earn it per say with good deeds. I think we\* realize\* our salvation through a process of growth which results and is expressed in our deeds. > [@](#): > > Phil 2: 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to _work out your salvation_ with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. PLenty of verses to support the concept. The whole alter call concept in which people turn their lives over to Jesus and are instantly saved is misunderstood far to narrow. As a preacher once said, “You can save a man from drowning but he still has a life to lead afterwards” People aren’t saved because they have some experience and decide to follow Jesus as Lord. They have merely chosen a path for themselves that may work for them. That path still has to be walked and the process of growth will hopefully continue. Often that’s where organized religion becomes a hindrance. I don’t think it matters whether we embrace any particular concept of God although that’s fine if it’s the vehicle that moves us forward as an individual. What matters is intent. For me it’s boiled down to the quest to understand love and truth. I find those are universal principles that can work well within religion and apart from it. IMO the issue of faith doesn’t mean having faith in any particular concept of God or some iconic figure such as Jesus, Buddha etc. It means having faith that the quest is worth the effort and there is more to know, understand, and express through actions,and that the that journey has value not only to ourselves but to others around us and future generations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-god-exists-it-is-not-important-whether-you-believe-in-god-or-not/484190.md?page=4)