# Even IF Obama Weren't Born In the USA... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 6, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053 "2009-01-06T05:47:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/21 "2009-01-06T20:58:15Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > no Congressional statute has the authority to determine or affect what the Constitution means by “natural-born citizen.” That’s not true. For one thing, Congress, without any amendment of the Constitution, can admit new places into the Union. California wasn’t always part of the U.S., but no one doubts that a child born there today is a natural-born citizen of the U.S. Nonetheless, had Congress acted differently once upon a time, that land wouldn’t be U.S. territory, and that child wouldn’t have U.S. citizenship (at least by action of being born in the U.S.) It seems obvious to me, and no one has offered any contrary interpretation, that a natural born citizen is someone who was a citizen at the time of his birth, under whatever rules of citizenship were then in force. (So long as they comported with the 14th Amendment.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/22 "2009-01-06T21:09:25Z")
> [@Stathol](#): > > Except that by running for the office of President, he has claimed to be eligible for that office. Cite? > [@](#): > > it is most certainly his burden and duty to prove that his assertion is true So if there were a fire in the Honolulu County courthouse in '62 that destroyed all copies of this paper, that in itself would have made an otherwise eligible Barack Obama ineligible? That’s moronic. > [@](#): > > The only document which can legally establish this would be his birth certificate, Cite? > [@](#): > > which contrary to popular belief, he continues to withhold. Cite? > [@](#): > > A certificate of live birth is not legally or evidentially sufficient to establish place of birth or citizenship. Cite? (Also, what does “evidentially” mean in this sentence that isn’t covered by the word “legally”?) > [@](#): > > I have no idea _why_ he has repeatedly refused to furnish his birth certificate There is no piece of paper extant that would satisfy you. Ergo, there is no reason to keep paying attention to you. Come back when you’re ready to play with the big boys. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/23 "2009-01-06T21:51:49Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > That’s not true. For one thing, Congress, without any amendment of the Constitution, can admit new places into the Union. California wasn’t always part of the U.S., but no one doubts that a child born there today is a natural-born citizen of the U.S. Nonetheless, had Congress acted differently once upon a time, that land wouldn’t be U.S. territory, and that child wouldn’t have U.S. citizenship (at least by action of being born in the U.S.) Ooh, interesting example! I love this kind of noodling; it appeals to my OCD. I guess I would respond that Congress’ power to admit new states is itself expressly granted by the Constitution. The extension of natural-born citizenship into new states would thus be pursuant to Constitutional authority, overlaying Congress’ action. Still, given that my whole position is that there is no solid answer, I have to agree that you’ve made a nice counter-argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/24 "2009-01-06T22:25:51Z")
> [@Stathol](#): > > A certificate of live birth is not legally or evidentially sufficient to establish place of birth or citizenship. Just out of curiosity, I dug up the official, state-issued birth records for me, the wife and my children. Here’s what I found: County of Cook, State of Illinois, Office of the County Clerk “Certification of Birth” (complete with embossed seal). I also have a an official photocopy (complete with embossed seal) of my “Certificate of Birth” Department of Public Welfare, Division of Health, Bureau of Vital Statistics, City of Cleveland, State of Ohio “Copy of Birth Certificate” This (complete with embossed seal) document sates that it is “an exact copy of the record of birth” Department of Social Services - Missouri Division of Health **“Certificate of Live Birth”** (I have three of these, complete with embossed seals, for different kids.) Since each of these documents has been officially issued to us by the proper authorities (complete with the embossed seal) and they’ve been used to apply for Social Secutirty numbers, driver’s licenses, voter registration, Passports and other documents issued by state or federal authorities, I challenge **Stahol** to show me any statute or regulation that says they are NOT “sufficient to establish place of birth or citizenship.” ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/25 "2009-01-07T02:32:35Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > under whatever rules of citizenship were then in force. I think citizenship can be given retroactively. Wasn’t McCain given unassailable citizenship in the 70’s as part of a bill? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/26 "2009-01-07T03:13:16Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > As someone who has never voted for a Democrat for any office in his life, I am astounded at the continuing attempt to bring this crapola up. Obama is the next President. I wish him luck, and fear that he is as vastly underqualified as the last person to hold the office. Moderator Note Please don’t bring political tinged statements into a General Questions thread. Please make them as factual as posible, without interjecting your personal opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/27 "2009-01-07T03:50:11Z")
> [@Stathol](#): > > A certificate of live birth is not legally or evidentially sufficient to establish place of birth or citizenship. I am younger than Obama, but I was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, and I have only a Certificate of Live Birth. For every instance I have needed to show proof of my US citizenship, I have shown this document, and it has always been accepted with no problems. I have never seen nor heard of any other document that establishes place of birth in Hawaii that is called anything other than a Certificate of Live Birth. Exactly what document would you like Obama (and me, for that matter) to produce? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/28 "2009-01-07T14:36:28Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I think citizenship can be given retroactively. Wasn’t McCain given unassailable citizenship in the 70’s as part of a bill? The '30’s, actually. Congress certainly has the power to grant citizenship. They don’t have the power to grant “natural-born citizenship,” whatever that means. Because if they did, then the requirement in the Constitution that a citizen be natural born would have no meaning. (It is my position, actually, discussed on two or three of these threads before the election, that McCain is not a natural-born citizen and was not eligible for the presidency.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/29 "2009-01-07T14:42:08Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I guess I would respond that Congress’ power to admit new states is itself expressly granted by the Constitution. Congress also has the express power to regulate who is and is not a citizen. (Art I., Sec. 8, cl. 4: “The Congress shall have the Power… To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization…”) And indeed, before Reconstruction, there was no explicit requirement in the Constitution that people born in the U.S. would be citizens – it was left to Congressional sufferance. (And of course, before that time, there were thousands born in the U.S. every year who were not citizens.) –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/30 "2009-01-07T18:22:34Z")
> [@Stathol](#): > > Except that by running for the office of President, he has claimed to be eligible for that office. Therefore he has claimed to be a natural born citizen. As such, it is most certainly his burden and duty to prove that his assertion is true. The only document which can legally establish this would be his birth certificate, which contrary to popular belief, he continues to withhold. A certificate of live birth is not legally or evidentially sufficient to establish place of birth or citizenship. > > Make of it what you will. I have no idea _why_ he has repeatedly refused to furnish his birth certificate, but it doesn’t really matter. It’s his responsibility to do so. However, “birth certificate” is a general description of a class of documents, not a specific standard “everybody got one” WorldGov Form #495-26AF5. Hawaii issues a birth certificate document which is titled “Certificate of Live Birth”. Therefore, Obama HAS supplied a valdi document falling within the class of birth certificate documents, and any arguments to the contrary are wrong. Not to mention that, if I recall previous threads on this issue correctly, there is nothing in US law that states that a birth certificate is the only valid proof of citizenship from birth, and there is in fact specific provision for other forms of proof. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/31 "2009-01-07T18:30:48Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I think citizenship can be given retroactively. Wasn’t McCain given unassailable citizenship in the 70’s as part of a bill? The issue actually came up with respect to Barry Goldwater in 1960. He was born in Arizona before it was a US State. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/32 "2009-01-07T18:38:36Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > The issue actually came up with respect to Barry Goldwater in 1960. He was born in Arizona before it was a US State. However, he was born when Arizona was a territory of the U.S., and not when it was part of Mexico. I don’t think that raises any more issues than Al Gore’s candidacy – Gore was not born in one of the 50 states of the U.S. (he was born in DC). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/33 "2009-01-07T21:30:04Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > The '30’s, actually. Congress certainly has the power to grant citizenship. They don’t have the power to grant “natural-born citizenship,” whatever that means. **Because if they did, then the requirement in the Constitution that a citizen be natural born would have no meaning.** Not exactly; it would mean that Congress would have a great deal of control over who could become President. I think you’re right that Congress has never taken the position that it has that power, but ti doesn’t strike me as Constitutionally absurd. If the purpose of the NBC provision was to ensure that the Presidency would only be open to those tending to have the strongest loyalty to the US, it’s not inconceivable that the Constitution would afford to Congress (as part of its citizenship powers) the ability to award retroactive NBC status to individuals whom it deemed to have demonstrated such loyalty. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053/34 "2009-01-08T00:26:01Z")
I guess what I’m hearing now is that Hawaii did (in the past) issue a “COLB” to anyone that requested one. I find that very hard to believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-obama-werent-born-in-the-usa/480053.md?page=1)