# Even if the Democrats win in 2018, I think I'll still be disappointed. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679 "2017-06-23T14:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/61 "2017-06-28T01:52:31Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Yeah but isn’t part of the problem just the fact that the GOP appeals to whites on a cultural level that the democrats just cannot? Add “testosterone poisoned” and possibly “red necked” to “whites” and you nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/62 "2017-06-28T07:40:48Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > The Dems need their own simple rhetoric; they need their own ideas; they need their own mantras, policy proposals, and chants. Granted, its hard to dumb everything down to a simple slogan or platitude, but that’s what the Democrats need right now. And if the problems don’t have simple, catchy solutions, what then? Start to lie and bullshit as much as the opposition does? > [@adaher](#): > > That’s a common criticism of Democrats, but I don’t think it’s really all that valid. Their ideas are simple enough to explain, it’s just there’s nothing in it for the white working class but higher taxes and displacement from their jobs. If I had the energy, I would build (yet another) parody of that classic Life of Brian scene - “Well okay, apart from the social safety net, job training, UHC, better education, public transit, access to phone and internet lines, and stable economic policy, what have the democrats ever done for us?!” But I can’t be fucked, so I’m just going to call this post a massive shit sandwich and call it good. ---
**Author:** ![random6x7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8baadc/32.png) [@random6x7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/random6x7)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/63 "2017-06-28T11:53:11Z")
I’ve come to the conclusion that, every time a Republican attacks Dems for something, it’s either because the Reps do it too, but worse, or because it works. I think this is why they like to attack us on “identity politics” (aka “giving a shit about disenfranchised communities”). I offer as supporting evidence the changing demographics of the US, the results of the 2008 elections, and all the work the Reps put into voter suppression of people of color. When poc vote, they vote Dem. When they come out to vote, Dems win big. We should worry more about how to get poc out to vote. Some of this is going to be messaging and optics,but I’m guessing a lot of it will have to do with helping them overcome the obstacles Reps have put in place for voting. Maybe we can set up more car pools, for voting day and for registering and getting id. Maybe we can have free babysitting on election day. Getting election day set aside as a holiday would also be good, but a lot of lower income jobs don’t get those days off anyway. The establishment needs to talk to these communities more to help them get out there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/64 "2017-06-29T04:21:20Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > That’s simply not true, but your depiction is an example of how the Democrats are easily painted in distorted hues when they don’t do enough to loudly label their own policy ideas. > > The Democrats don’t support raising taxes on white working class voters, but the GOP has used the discussion of tax hikes for wealthier Americans to depict the Democrats as _wanting_ to raise middle class taxes. It is the public position of the Democratic Party that they will not raise taxes on working class voters. The history of the Democratic Party combined with the basic arithmetic of the budget and their ambitions, says that steep hikes on working class voters are inevitable. > [@](#): > > It’s innovation and the dropping price of natural gas that has displaced the coal industry, but the Democrats complicated and nuanced ideas about how to deal with long-term trends have been perverted into, “they don’t care about you”, because these solutions don’t speak as plainly as “drill baby drill.” If innovation and the market were killing off fossil fuels then wouldn’t it be smart of Democrats not to kick the industry while it’s down? It was that that got them in trouble in coal and oil country. > [@](#): > > There’s lots for the white working class to support from Democrats; universal healthcare…better access to higher education…improved subsidized nutrition for their kids… the white working class has health care. They have reasonable access to higher education. They don’t want food stamps. > [@](#): > > But, even at the educated and intelligent electorate level, these weathered old stereotypes about “high taxes” and a “one world government” are routinely trotted out as reasons why Democrats should be kept constrained and their ideas tempered. At the meandering level of mediocrity where most voters subsist, it results in a belief that it is downright dangerous to let a Democrat get their way. Or, you could just find a Bill Clinton who knows how to talk to these people and who will stand by his pledges to not screw with their way of life. I’d also note that recent Democratic attacks on religious freedom aren’t doing them any good with this demographic either. A recent SCOTUS decision saying that the government couldn’t refuse to give money to churches participating in social programs set off howls of outrage among some sets of the left, who don’t want equality of religions, but want the state to actively discriminate against religion in the name of “seperation”. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/65 "2017-06-29T06:05:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If innovation and the market were killing off fossil fuels then wouldn’t it be smart of Democrats not to kick the industry while it’s down? It was that that got them in trouble in coal and oil country. Care to unpack that? What did the dems do to “kick the industry while it’s down”? And is it in any way distinguishable from simply demanding that the industry cover externalities it is responsible for? > [@](#): > > the white working class has health care. They have reasonable access to higher education. They don’t want food stamps. We must be thinking of different things when we say “working class”. I’m thinking of the working poor. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/66 "2017-06-29T06:50:33Z")
I believe the standard definition is white households with income under $60K, which encompasses poor workers and most middle class workers. My point with coal and oil is that Democrats have a long record of hostility to these industries, which naturally leads to the industries being hostile to them. Not sure what’s complicated about that. If the industries were indeed dying due to market forces, then smart politics would dictate just letting that happen, rather than making damn sure they die. Energy markets can turn on a dime. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/67 "2017-06-29T06:53:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My point with coal and oil is that Democrats have a long record of hostility to these industries, which naturally leads to the industries being hostile to them. Not sure what’s complicated about that. What actual policies are there? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/68 "2017-06-29T07:37:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is exactly what I was going to say. Yes, it’s a constitutional issue, but it is clear that the constitution is unambiguously wrong. > > We are Americans. We should vote as Americans. The idea that California or New York or any other state should have any meaning at all in selection of our our national government is an outdated, stupid, tribalist, dividing concept. > > Congress and president should represent the people, period. The states should be treated as nothing more than functional administrative bodies in choosing the government, and deciding and implementing national law and policy. > > Getting there is going to be difficult but that’s where we will have to go. Put that in the Democratic Party Platform and you absolutely won’t have to worry about still being disappointed when the Democrats win. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/69 "2017-06-29T08:23:06Z")
I’m not sure Ascenray realizes that he’s calling for an end to the Constitutional order. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/70 "2017-06-29T12:00:20Z")
You’re a century and a half late on that. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/71 "2017-06-29T12:31:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My point with coal and oil is that Democrats have a long record of hostility to these industries, which naturally leads to the industries being hostile to them. Not sure what’s complicated about that. If the industries were indeed dying due to market forces, then smart politics would dictate just letting that happen, rather than making damn sure they die. Energy markets can turn on a dime. I thing the Democratic aim should be an effort to find people pushed out of work by the decline of fossil fuels training for other employment. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/72 "2017-06-29T12:32:11Z")
If you’re referring to the Civil War, that did not turn states into mere administrative districts of the federal government. As the lack of Medicaid expansion proves. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/73 "2017-06-29T12:40:51Z")
Sigh. Supremacy Clause. Commerce Clause. Been over this with ya many times, without effect. Yes, there are many people still waving the modern flag of slavery and Jim Crow, now called States’ Rights, and Roberts’ use of the concept as a sop to keep some righty cred in his Obamacare decision is an example of it. To claim it as a fundamental principle is not as factual as a party-firster like you would like, however. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/74 "2017-06-29T17:20:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You need 37 states to ratify for the Elecotral College. That means some small states would have to agree to lessen their own power to choose the President. It’s difficult, but not impossible. Our country voted for women’s suffrage, even though that means men’s relative power was cut in half! > [@](#): > > The Senate is the one thing you can’t change even by amendment. Article V of the Constitution reads: > [@](#): > > Share > The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate. What if we passed an amendment declaring that the Senate is a ceremonial advisory body with no real legislative power? That way, every state still has equal representation in the Senate. Problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/75 "2017-06-29T18:49:07Z")
I note that article V doesn’t protect _itself_ - if the government was hell-bent on eradicating the Senate, they could simply amend away the part of the constitution that says they can’t do so. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/76 "2017-06-29T19:48:14Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > It’s difficult, but not impossible. Our country voted for women’s suffrage, even though that means men’s relative power was cut in half! It’s a mistake to think that [women couldn’t vote in the US before the 19th amendment was passed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Map_of_US_Suffrage,_1920.svg). Voting is largely controlled by the states, so states didn’t need permission from the feds in order to allow women to vote. Women could vote in many states before passage, but also a good deal of the men expected women to vote as they did, thus adding to their power. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/77 "2017-06-30T04:08:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Sigh. Supremacy Clause. Commerce Clause. Been over this with ya many times, without effect. Supremacy Clause applies to valid federal laws. It does not apply to say, forcing states to expand Medicaid. > [@](#): > > Yes, there are many people still waving the modern flag of slavery and Jim Crow, now called States’ Rights, and Roberts’ use of the concept as a sop to keep some righty cred in his Obamacare decision is an example of it. To claim it as a fundamental principle is not as factual as a party-firster like you would like, however. Well, if you guys want to jump on board the “states are just federal administrative districts” bandwagon, that’s fine by me. Let’s have TWO out of the mainstream parties. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/78 "2017-06-30T05:14:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Yes, where the non-slave states agreed that a slave could be counted as half a man. 🙂 Slaves did not get 3/5 of a vote in those days. They just didn’t vote at all. They did give their states more representatives in the House, but those representatives weren’t theirs, but representatives of the ruling class in those states. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/79 "2017-06-30T07:28:55Z")
**adaher** , who are these states you speak of? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2017, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679/80 "2017-06-30T08:26:34Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I note that article V doesn’t protect _itself_ - if the government was hell-bent on eradicating the Senate, they could simply amend away the part of the constitution that says they can’t do so. The Supreme Court would interpret that part of the Constitution as unchangeable without abrogating the entire document. However, there is one path. It says “without its consent”, so presumably you could alter or abolish the Senate with unanimous, 50-state ratification. You could perhaps rule that 37 states can ratify it, but any states that don’t would have to have the option of leaving the Union. The Senate is the most critical part of the contract between the states and the federal government. If you get rid of it, you’ve essentially ripped up the contract. Unless of course we unanimously agree that we don’t need the Senate anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-the-democrats-win-in-2018-i-think-ill-still-be-disappointed/789679.md?page=5)