# Even if we win, we lose **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205 "2003-03-21T20:41:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/1 "2003-03-21T20:41:08Z")
Even if we get Saddam, take all the oil fields intact, liberate the Iraqis with minimal loss of life, AND find Osama we still lose. Even if the stock market climbs back up to 11,000, even if Bush’s approval goes through the roof, even if he goes on TV and tells the world “We won the War on Terror,” we lose. Why? Because a month, year, or five years from now another skyscraper full of people is going to fall, or a plane loaded with Anthrax and Botulism is going to fly over an open stadium filled to capacity, or a hundred snipers are going to start killing random civilians, or a truck loaded with enriched plutonium and c4 is going to stop in the Holland Tunnel and change the face of America forever. Enjoying crushing an insignificant and easily identifiable enemy in Iraq now, because the party is going to be short lived. This conflict can’t be won with war. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/2 "2003-03-21T20:44:30Z")
What if I torture a kitten to death? Would that stop it? ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/3 "2003-03-21T20:46:01Z")
Not even if you tortured 10,000 kittens. 20,000 is another story though. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/4 "2003-03-21T20:48:00Z")
What if I tortured a mole of kittens? ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/5 "2003-03-21T20:49:35Z")
Well thats a bit of a defeatist attitude. ☹ Im sorry you feel like that. Get some sleep. relax. it’ll be over soon. Dont worry your stressed out little head about it. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/6 "2003-03-21T20:54:13Z")
Defeatist? hah! That assumes I don’t think this conflict can be won. Quite the contrary I do, just not like this. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/7 "2003-03-21T20:58:04Z")
Well, in that case, we might as well just push the buttons and extinctify the whole planet. If no matter what we do, we lose, might as well start obliterating anybody who looks at us funny. If we’re doomed anyway, might as well just cut to the chase and exterminate the entire human species. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/8 "2003-03-21T20:59:52Z")
You know what? 9/11 was bad. But come on. It was just a building, it was just several thousand people. Yes, it affected our economy. But we recovered. Yes, people died. There are still hundreds of millions of us that didn’t die. Sure, work to avoid such things in the future. But risk is a part of life. Every day people die driving to work, or choke to death on food, or slip and fall and drown to death in the bathtub. Even if this war guaranteed another incident comparable to 9/11 it would still be worth it. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/9 "2003-03-21T21:09:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > **Because a month, year, or five years from now another skyscraper full of people is going to fall, or a plane loaded with Anthrax and Botulism is going to fly over an open stadium filled to capacity, or a hundred snipers are going to start killing random civilians, or a truck loaded with enriched plutonium and c4 is going to stop in the Holland Tunnel and change the face of America forever.** This is speculation on your part, though. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/10 "2003-03-21T21:10:43Z")
Why do anything…? ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/11 "2003-03-21T21:11:32Z")
I should have been more clear but for the sake of brevity and a dramatic title, I left out some details. Allow me to clarify: “Even if we win the War in Iraq, we’ll lose the War on Terror” But that doesn’t mean there is no solution. I’m what **December** might call an appease-nik. Although my own ideas aren’t quite that black and white. ---
**Author:** ![Rug\_Burn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a87d85/32.png) [@Rug\_Burn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rug_Burn)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/12 "2003-03-21T21:13:33Z")
If we don’t take action now, we’ll settle for nothing later Settle for nothing now, and we’ll settle for nothing later 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/13 "2003-03-21T21:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\*This is speculation on your part, though. \*\* Speculation maybe, but to assume otherwise is to invite disaster. We spent 10 years and 50,000 American lives speculating that the Viet Kong would give up. Is that the same kind of mistake you want to make in this conflict? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/14 "2003-03-21T21:19:57Z")
How many lives did the British and French give up speculating that appeasing Hitler would bring peace? This is fun, we can do this all day. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/15 "2003-03-21T21:24:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*You know what? 9/11 was bad. But come on. It was just a building, it was just several thousand people. Yes, it affected our economy. But we recovered. Yes, people died. There are still hundreds of millions of us that didn’t die. Sure, work to avoid such things in the future. But risk is a part of life. Every day people die driving to work, or choke to death on food, or slip and fall and drown to death in the bathtub. > > Even if this war guaranteed another incident comparable to 9/11 it would still be worth it. \*\* A dirty nuke in NYC will kill millions and make that city uninhabitable for a century. Also, I think playing down the atrocity that took place on 9.11 is both callous and foolhardy. Someone punched us in our eye and said, “notice me, I blame you for my lot in life.” and you want to say it’s just a black eye, it will heal, no reason to get all excited. I hope you remember that outlook when they come back for our balls. ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/16 "2003-03-21T21:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*How many lives did the British and French give up speculating that appeasing Hitler would bring peace? > > This is fun, we can do this all day. \*\* Hitler was an aggressor pursing world domination. The terrorists are a rag tag band of rebels fighting what they perceive as an aggressor that has oppressed and exploited them. The two situations are not analogous. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/17 "2003-03-21T21:30:15Z")
What about the mole of kittens? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/18 "2003-03-21T21:30:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > \*\*I should have been more clear but for the sake of brevity and a dramatic title, I left out some details. Allow me to clarify: > > “Even if we win the War in Iraq, we’ll lose the War on Terror”\*\* That’s a little different, but it’s still too absolutist. What that still says is that we will lose the “War on Terror” no matter what. How about “Winning the war in Iraq will not mean victory in the ‘War on Terror’.’”? ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/19 "2003-03-21T21:32:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by asterion \* > \*\*What about the mole of kittens? \*\* They were tabled at the UN. No real consensus could be reached. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205/20 "2003-03-21T21:32:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cainxinth \* > \*\*Hitler was an aggressor pursing world domination. The terrorists are a rag tag band of rebels fighting what they perceive as an aggressor that has oppressed and exploited them. The two situations are not analogous. \*\* Really? So they don’t seek to take political control of states and establish regimes based on their own set of Islamic values? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-if-we-win-we-lose/163205.md?page=2)