# Even MORE LOTR questions! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 9, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214 "2019-02-09T01:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/21 "2019-02-10T04:14:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Especially as the wain-riders came rather mysteriously out of the east to attack Gondor several times. And the Great Plague, which lead to Osgiliath being abandoned and the constant watch on Mordor too. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/22 "2019-02-11T00:35:55Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Tolkien makes the point in LoTR that actions across Middle-Earth have consequences. If Smaug had not been defeated (for example) the War of the Ring could have been much worse for Gondor, et al. It’s by no means impossible that the other Wizards’ actions successfully kept Sauron from getting more allies, even if we don’t see it happen. I don’t recall if this was from anything official, or if it was from the old Middle Earth Role-Playing supplements I read long ago, but I seem to recall something about the Blue Wizards going “bad” in the sense that they started doing their own empire-building in the East, but that might have messed with Sauron somewhat, as it’s still competition. ---
**Author:** ![Pithily\_Effusive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pithily_effusive/32/252_2.png) [@Pithily\_Effusive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pithily_Effusive)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/23 "2019-02-18T07:20:18Z")
1. Gandalf never had a thing with Galadriel. Gandalf was Maia. That means his form was similar to a magic spell cast on people’s perceptions. Galadriel, as well as Celeborn and the Elves of the Light (even Tom Bombadil) knew this about him. Thus the level of respect he was afforded. 2. Radagast went further east to study more of the animals of Middle Earth. Tolkien had no desire to elaborate further on him as a character. He, too, was Maia, as was also Saruman, and Sauron for that matter. “Maia” is the equivalent of a demi-god. 3. Elrond was among the Elves who took the White Ship to Valinor which also carried Frodo, Gandalf, and the other ring-bearers. The end of the Third Age is marked by Elrond’s departure. 4. Shelob was the offspring of Ungoliant, a companion of Melkor, Sauron’s boss. As for why untouched for so long? She made her home in places where elves did not come across her. They _did_ come across her \*offspring \*in Ephel Dúath and Mirkwood, however. Where she lived men, elves and dwarves became scarce so she ate orcs. Sauron and she had an informal relationship. He let her alone, and she guarded that pass on his flank (thus making Sam Gamgee’s victory over her the feat that it was). Sauron would often send prisoners to her to eat, and he ignored the fact he lost a few orc soldiers to her over the years. 5. Legolas and Bard are the only archers in this group you mention. Aragorn was a swordsman. Bard is known for hitting a rather huge target. Legolas hit the beast of a Nazgul the others couldn’t even see - using the Bow of Galadriel, of course. It’s doubtful any men of the Third Age would best an elf at archery. If you are truly interested in Tolkien, I would recommend to you [The Tolkien Gateway](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Main_Page). And, by the way, I’ve never seen the movies. I’ll never see the movies. The movies have little to nothing to do with the book Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/24 "2019-02-18T14:17:21Z")
Smaug was a huge target, but the single missing scale on his breast, not so much. And Legolas shooting down the fell beast can as easily be attributed to superior eyesight as to superior archery. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/25 "2019-02-18T19:37:44Z")
> [@Pithily\_Effusive](#): > > And, by the way, I’ve never seen the movies. I’ll never see the movies. The movies have little to nothing to do with the book Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. That’s a damn shame. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/26 "2019-02-18T20:03:34Z")
> [@Pithily\_Effusive](#): > > The movies have little to nothing to do with the book Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien. By that standard, there have hardly been any movie adaptations of any book. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/27 "2019-02-18T21:59:07Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > By that standard, there have hardly been any movie adaptations of any book. I was going to ask how he knows for sure, having never seen them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/28 "2019-02-18T22:04:50Z")
The Lord of the Rings movies were actually pretty good adaptations. Now, the recent Hobbit movies, yeah, those ones you can skip (though the animated one wasn’t too bad) ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/29 "2019-02-18T22:23:55Z")
I’m sorry, but I’ll have to disagree with that assessment, but then, you know my opinion of the movies. Peter Jackson deserves to rot somewhere for a long time over what he did to the books to make the movies. Which doesn’t mean they aren’t good movies; they probably are for anyone not immersed in the “real” story. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/30 "2019-02-18T23:00:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Lord of the Rings movies were actually pretty good adaptations. Now, the recent Hobbit movies, yeah, those ones you can skip (though the animated one wasn’t too bad) I thought LotR was cinematic genius. Hobbit was Ok, but kinda ruined by the instance by the studio that it be three films. I did like the White company vs the necromancer, and the start of the movie, those were fantastic. So, a mixed bag. I’d say- buy the extended version but get ready to fast forward. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/31 "2019-02-18T23:56:16Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > The task of the Istari was done, so there was nothing keeping him in Middle-Earth, and in the prologue (“Note on the Shire Records”) of LotR, it says that “there is no record of the day when at last [Celeborn] sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.” That seems to imply that Radagast was no longer in Middle-Earth. I have little to add to the excellent answers already given here. Just a minor FYI that the Istari were not in Middle-earth during the Elder Days. They only showed up in the early Third Age. Relatively recently in the timeline. As for the movies… My main criticism is that the six books of \*LotR \*were compressed into three movies, while the one _Hobbit_ book was stretched out into three. In an ideal world there would have been 6 \*LotR \*movies and only one _Hobbit_ movie. That said, the \*LotR \*movies were on the whole pretty good! My major beef with Jackson is the ridiculous episode inserted into _The Two Towers_ with the fake death of Aragorn falling off a cliff. It violated Tolkien’s story, added nothing cinematically, and vitiated my enjoyment of the series. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/32 "2019-02-19T01:28:39Z")
I agree, that was my biggest complaint, too. You’ve already got to cut a lot to make it fit; no sense in adding something that wasn’t in the book, so you have to cut even more. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/33 "2019-02-19T02:09:01Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That said, the \*LotR \*movies were on the whole pretty good! My major beef with Jackson is the ridiculous episode inserted into _The Two Towers_ with the fake death of Aragorn falling off a cliff. It violated Tolkien’s story, added nothing cinematically, and vitiated my enjoyment of the series. I was rather annoyed by the alteration of the Faramir storyline (taking the hobbits to Osgiliath, complete with Frodo once again almost-but-not-quite-putting-the-ring-on when the Witch King flies by, and the death of Denethor, which, as written, was pretty damned dramatic and didn’t need the flying leap. On the other hand, Boromir’s death speech to Aragorn, and his comforting of the hobbits after the loss of Gandalf, were both \*very \*well done. And since I’m a big fan of Benedict Cumberbatch, I was rather thrilled with Smaug (but not the bloody roller coaster rides in, I think, all three movies!). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/34 "2019-02-19T03:20:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I have little to add to the excellent answers already given here. Just a minor FYI that the Istari were not in Middle-earth during the Elder Days. They only showed up in the early Third Age. Relatively recently in the timeline. I believe that the statement quoted from the Prologue is not intended to indicate that Celeborn was the last person who had memory of Middle-Earth in the Eldar days, but rather that he was the last person with memory of the Eldar Days in Middle-Earth. Which, of course the _istari_ would have, since, as Maiar, they were around in the First Age, though not necessarily in Middle-Earth (though, of course, there’s not reason they couldn’t have been there, but obviously not as _istari_). ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/35 "2019-02-19T06:06:15Z")
I think some of the complaints about the adaptation fail to take into account the fact that film is a different from books. If Jackson had made six films covering every aspect of LOTR, one whole movie would have been a boring movie where the Council at Rivendell would be the entire content and as enthralling as binge-watching C-Span on a slow day. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/36 "2019-02-19T06:20:42Z")
Eldar = the non-Avari Elves, the ones bound for Valinor. Elder Days = the time of the Lamps and Trees, etc., up to the end of the First Age. As long as the Valinor-bound Elves were still in Middle-earth, that would be “Eldar Days,” I guess. Anyway, I took that phrasing to mean memory of the Elder Days (i.e. First Age) _of_ Middle-earth. The Istari’s memory of Valinor was fuzzy, as stated. The Council of Elrond only took up _one_ chapter of Book II. The remainder of Book II was action-packed. Moria, Lothlórien, Anduin, and Boromir’s last stand. That was a lot for one-sixth of the whole. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/37 "2019-02-19T06:23:37Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > I think some of the complaints about the adaptation fail to take into account the fact that film is a different from books. If Jackson had made six films covering every aspect of LOTR, one whole movie would have been a boring movie where the Council at Rivendell would be the entire content and as enthralling as binge-watching C-Span on a slow day. That was only a chapter. But I think Jackson did it pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![Pithily\_Effusive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pithily_effusive/32/252_2.png) [@Pithily\_Effusive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pithily_Effusive)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/38 "2019-02-19T06:34:02Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > They don’t know that. But what do they think they themselves are? Why wouldn’t they know that? Mithrandir wasn’t born on Middle Earth. He arrived at the Gray Havens where Cirdan the Shipwright gave him the ring he carried; Narya the Kindler. When saying Mithrandir is Maia, it is saying he has no corporeal body. He has a manifestation that is generated by the power of Illuvitar. He assumes a form for mortals and elves to perceive. He doesn’t have to \*think \*what he is. It is evident to him and others of that stature or above what he is. Sauron is also Maia, by the way. Do some reading here: [Tolkien Gateway](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Main_Page). ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/39 "2019-02-19T11:08:45Z")
About the Council of Elrond being only a chapter long; yeah, I was being a bit hyperbolic, I admit. I probably shoild have said that if the entire account was faithfully depicted it would have made for a long, boring scene that would have completely thrown off the pacing of the movie, and therefore was rightly abridged for the sake of the films. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/40 "2019-02-19T17:05:51Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I was rather annoyed by the alteration of the Faramir storyline (taking the hobbits to Osgiliath, complete with Frodo once again almost-but-not-quite-putting-the-ring-on when the Witch King flies by, and the death of Denethor, which, as written, was pretty damned dramatic and didn’t need the flying leap. > > On the other hand, Boromir’s death speech to Aragorn, and his comforting of the hobbits after the loss of Gandalf, were both \*very \*well done. And since I’m a big fan of Benedict Cumberbatch, I was rather thrilled with Smaug (but not the bloody roller coaster rides in, I think, all three movies!). I’d give the Jackson LOTR films (I doubt if I’ll ever watch all the Hobbits) a solid A-/B+. Ironically, some of the most memorable scenes and dialog from the movies are Jackson’s invention: Boromir and Aragorn, “I can’t carry it, but I can carry you”…“Friends, you bow to no one.” On the other hand: my absolute favorite scenes from the books are the interaction between our heroes and the bad guys: precisely because they’re so rare. Pippin and Sauron. Gandalf and the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith. Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron. And Jackson SCREWED THEM ALL UP. (Eowyn and the WK cut out the florid dialog, but cinematically I guess that made sense.) I’d finance a remake, just to get Gandalf and the WK done correctly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214.md?page=3)