# Even MORE LOTR questions! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 9, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214 "2019-02-09T01:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/41 "2019-02-19T17:07:27Z")
Also: I love having these discussions and don’t want them to end. But if the OP ever wants to research his own answers, [I recommend this site](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/42 "2019-02-19T19:25:00Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I believe that the statement quoted from the Prologue is not intended to indicate that Celeborn was the last person who had memory of Middle-Earth in the Eldar days, but rather that he was the last person with memory of the Eldar Days in Middle-Earth. Which, of course the _istari_ would have, since, as Maiar, they were around in the First Age, though not necessarily in Middle-Earth (though, of course, there’s not reason they couldn’t have been there, but obviously not as _istari_). Thank you, that is the implication I meant to highlight. It does raise yet another question regarding Tom Bombadil. Presumably, he would have been around in the First Age. There was no indication that he was inclined to go into the West, and it seems quite unlikely that he died. So, what does that line imply about him? If he is not gone, then he must either have forgotten or, in some sense not be living in Middle-Earth. My pet theory about Tom and certain other beings of Middle-Earth goes back to the nature of the creation of Arda and its creatures. It was not a world shaped by hand; Ilúvatar did not take a wad of clay and sculpt it into an Elf or Man. It is a physical manifestation of the Music of the Ainur. The Children of Ilúvatar, the familiar races, arose from particular themes; one might think of them as leit-motifs that appear in endless variations throughout the Music. However, there are places in Arda where one theme or another is clearly dominant in the Music: the stony peaks of mountains, the great winds of the open sky, the darkness of the deep earth far beneath even Moria. In these places, too, the themes manifest as beings: the giants, the eagles, and the “nameless things” mentioned by Gandalf. (I am aware that Tolkien himself struggled with the nature of the Eagles, but I feel it makes sense to place them in this category.) So, what has this to do with Tom? Tom Bombadil does not, after all, dwell in so elemental a place. He dwells in the Old Forest, amidst the earth and wood, the river and rain, the wind in the branches, and the fire in the hearth. He “remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn… he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless”. What theme could he represent, who himself sings endlessly? Who could he be, oldest and fatherless? Well, where in all of Middle-Earth is Middle-Earth more itself? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/43 "2019-02-19T19:32:51Z")
Maybe Old Tom sang himself into being. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/44 "2019-02-19T20:21:35Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > About the Council of Elrond being only a chapter long; yeah, I was being a bit hyperbolic, I admit. I probably shoild have said that if the entire account was faithfully depicted it would have made for a long, boring scene that would have completely thrown off the pacing of the movie, and therefore was rightly abridged for the sake of the films. Quite true, and instead it has two memorable moments and one of the best lines \*“One does not simply walk into Mordor”. \* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/45 "2019-02-19T20:37:13Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I’d give the Jackson LOTR films (I doubt if I’ll ever watch all the Hobbits) a solid A-/B+. > > Ironically, some of the most memorable scenes and dialog from the movies are Jackson’s invention: Boromir and Aragorn, “I can’t carry it, but I can carry you”…“Friends, you bow to no one.” > > On the other hand: my absolute favorite scenes from the books are the interaction between our heroes and the bad guys: precisely because they’re so rare. Pippin and Sauron. Gandalf and the Witch-King at the gates of Minas Tirith. Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron. And Jackson SCREWED THEM ALL UP. (Eowyn and the WK cut out the florid dialog, but cinematically I guess that made sense.) > > I’d finance a remake, just to get Gandalf and the WK done correctly. Gandalf and the WK ? Not very cinematic. The WK arrives, Gandal sez you cant enter, WK called Gandalf a fool, then WK hears the horns of Rohan blowing and flies off. Not much there. I liked the way Jackson handled it, as it made Eowyn’s & Merrie’s victory all that much better. And Pippin and Sauron was pretty much like in the book. The Mouth of Sauron, sure, but that interaction was a bit wordy in the books. I like the way The Mouth was shown. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/46 "2019-02-19T20:44:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Gandalf and the WK ? Not very cinematic. The WK arrives, Gandal sez you cant enter, WK called Gandalf a fool, then WK hears the horns of Rohan blowing and flies off. Not much there. I liked the way Jackson handled it, as it made Eowyn’s & Merrie’s victory all that much better. > > And Pippin and Sauron was pretty much like in the book. > > The Mouth of Sauron, sure, but that interaction was a bit wordy in the books. I like the way The Mouth was shown. Gandalf and WK: to each their own, although your opinion is obviously terrible. 🙂 Pippin and Sauron: in both the book and movie, Pippin is found with the palantir in a trance-like state. He snaps out of it and recalls what he saw. Book: he recounts a vision of Barad-Dur and a conversation with Sauron HIMSELF. (Which, of course, the film version would re-enact) Sauron’s only dialog in the entire trilogy, btw. Movie: I saw a vision of a white tree. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/47 "2019-02-19T22:02:50Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > I was rather annoyed by the alteration of the Faramir storyline (taking the hobbits to Osgiliath, complete with Frodo once again almost-but-not-quite-putting-the-ring-on when the Witch King flies by, and the death of Denethor, which, as written, was pretty damned dramatic and didn’t need the flying leap. Yeah! About the Faramir parts of Book IV, fucking Jackson omitted one of the coolest scenes in the whole thing: the Window on the West. Their secret hideout cave behind a waterfall—during sunset, with the westering Sun shining through the curtain of water in shimmering glorious colors. What’s wrong with you, Peter Jackson, for ignoring one of the greatest possible cinematic scenes? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/48 "2019-02-19T22:05:18Z")
We could start a thread on fixes we want in the next version. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/49 "2019-02-19T23:46:38Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > We could start a thread on fixes we want in the next version. 🙂 Well, there is a LOTR 5 season series in the works with a 1B+ budget. Rumor has it that the first episode will feature a young Aragorn. I suppose they’ll try to fill in the gaps between The Hobbit and The Fellowship of the Ring, maybe show Aragorn and Arwen’s romance, show the meeting of Aragorn and Legolas, maybe we even get to see cameos from the actors from the movies: Ian McKlellan has said he’d be open to reprising Gandalf if he is asked. I can imagine him popping in a couple times a season, you know, just to set things on the right path. That being said, no actual casting decisions have been announced yet. Who do you all think would be a good fit for the characters (in their younger days)? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/50 "2019-02-20T01:32:05Z")
I’m reserving judgment on the new series, and keeping my expectations at rock-bottom. I fully expect it’ll be generic fantasy, paying lip service to Tolkien’s place and character names. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/51 "2019-02-20T14:36:46Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > I think some of the complaints about the adaptation fail to take into account the fact that film is a different from books. If Jackson had made six films covering every aspect of LOTR, one whole movie would have been a boring movie where the Council at Rivendell would be the entire content and as enthralling as binge-watching C-Span on a slow day. Yes a film is different from a book, but the worst things Jackson did have nothing to do with that. I can’t be bothered to remember all the examples, but for instance there’s no real cinematic reason for making Denthenor a selfish greedy pig (the book specifically shows that Denthenor, despite his age, keeps the Spartan discipline of a warrior). And that’s not a minor change, since perhaps the biggest theme of the book was the need to keep hope; and Denthenor is the tragic example of someone who is smart, strong, capable and not at all selfish, until he finally is worn down and tricked and gives in to despair. Movie Denthenor is just a foolish, selfish poor leader who provides no lesson other than “Ha, I’m glad I’m not a pig like him” And book Faramir is important to show that Men can indeed, at times, do the right thing, even if they’re not the more-than-ordinary-mortal Aragorn; that Men are not only Boromir’s shortsightedness, but also Faramir’s insight and humility. When **Skald** lends me his alternate-universe travelling machine, I think I’d like to visit the universe where Peter Jackson was in charge of every visual aspect of the movie-- the props, sets and cinemetography-- but was forbidden from touching the script, which was written by someone who actually understood the books. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/52 "2019-02-20T21:34:22Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I’m reserving judgment on the new series, and keeping my expectations at rock-bottom. I fully expect it’ll be generic fantasy, paying lip service to Tolkien’s place and character names. Yup. Better to be pleasantly surprised, however unlikely that might be. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/53 "2019-02-25T06:50:00Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Ironically, some of the most memorable scenes and dialog from the movies are Jackson’s invention: […] “I can’t carry it, but I can carry you” That line is not an invention. It’s a slight paraphrase of what Sam says to Frodo in the chapter “Mount Doom”. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214/54 "2019-02-25T16:11:50Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > That line is not an invention. It’s a slight paraphrase of what Sam says to Frodo in the chapter “Mount Doom”. Yup. > [@J.R.R. Tolkien](#): > > ‘Come, Mr. Frodo!’ he cried. ‘I can’t carry it for you, but I can carry you and it as well. So up you get! Come on, Mr. Frodo dear! Sam will give you a ride. Just tell him where to go, and he’ll go.’ So Jackson gets little-to-no credit for this one. I’m not even sure if he gets much credit for the “It’s stupid but I love it anyway” scene with the beacons. I think most of the credit for that goes to Howard Shore. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-more-lotr-questions/829214.md?page=2)