# Even National Security and Foreign Policy a problem for Bush now **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906 "2003-08-22T12:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/1 "2003-08-22T12:46:05Z")
The last of the Myths is being to fall. Given the disasterous handling of the budget deficit, the economy and various national policies designed to pander to the extremist wings of the Party, Bush’s percieved skill in foreign policy and national security issues was his hope of appealing to centrist voters. Well, don’t count on it, Curious George. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28971-2003Aug21.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28971-2003Aug21.html) > [@](#): > > Both Republican and Democratic strategists have begun adjusting their plans for what they once viewed as unthinkable: that Bush’s handling of national security in general, and the war in Iraq in particular, could become a vulnerability rather than an asset in his reelection race. > > One presidential adviser said the suicide attacks hours apart in Iraq and Israel, which undermined the two anchors of Bush’s ambitious effort to transform the Middle East, made Tuesday “by far the worst political day for Bush since 9/11.” And it gets deeper for Bush > [@](#): > > Still, after this week’s violence, several Republican officials said they are rethinking calculations that Bush’s vulnerability is the economy. “A couple of months ago, everyone believed national security was the president’s trump card,” said one Republican with ties to the White House. “Now, we could be in a position where the economy is growing very nicely, well in advance of the election, and the vulnerability could be on the national security side.” > > Independent experts see more political trouble than advantage for Bush in Iraq. “There is a substantial potential for the occupation of Iraq to become a deep political problem for Bush,” according to Ohio State University’s John Mueller, an authority on public opinion and war. If things go well, people will lose interest, but if things go badly, “people are increasingly likely to see the war as a mistake, and starting and continuing wars that people come to consider mistaken does not enhance a president’s reelectability.” > > The matter is politically important to Bush because he has made the peaceful transformation of the Middle East the main justification for war in Iraq. With the failure to find forbidden weapons in Iraq, Bush and his aides have said the invasion of Iraq will allow it to become the linchpin of a stable and democratic Middle East. In one version of this argument, Bush said last week that in deciding to go to war in Iraq, he made “a tough decision to make the world more peaceful.” As a result, continued violence in Iraq and the Middle East would deprive the administration of another key justification for the war. Damn, now what are the Apologista’s going to do? Blame Clinton? Intentionally mislabel quotes? I know-- its the liberal media’s fault! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/2 "2003-08-22T12:52:06Z")
More good news: > [@](#): > > SACRAMENTO - Californians’ view of President Bush has reached a new low in a long decline since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, polls showed Thursday, leaving him to choose among risky re-election strategies in the nation’s most populous state. > > Half the state’s voters approve of his performance, 45 percent disapprove and the rest are undecided in the Field Poll. Immediately after the attacks, 74 percent approved and 16 percent disapproved of his performance. > > Democrats have since reversed their views, with 72 percent now believing he is doing a poor job. Among independent voters, 48 percent now hold a negative view. Bush continues to enjoy an overwhelming 86 percent approval rating from Republicans. Analysis: > [@](#): > > “What we’re getting now is the bottom line or root feeling about the president if you subtract 9-11,” said Robert Waste, a professor of public policy and administration at California State University, Sacramento. > > Terrorism aside, “the economy is probably first, second and third on people’s minds,” Waste said. “When you’ve got a jobless recovery, you’re in trouble - any president is.” > > … > > “Voters are cranky in California,” said Bruce Cain of the University of California, Berkeley, Institute of Governmental Studies. “For the time being, voters are willing to direct it all at Gray Davis as the nearest available object.” Once the Oct. 7 gubernatorial recall election is over, they’re likely to blame Bush for the poor economy and for failing to intervene in the energy crisis two years ago. Damn that liberal media always reporting facts and analysis not in line with the approved spin control. If they had only accepted a anti-trust payoff like good old Rupert did with DirectTV they would see things the Pubbie way. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/3 "2003-08-22T12:56:00Z")
Crap- cite for the last post: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30295-2003Aug22.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30295-2003Aug22.html) Sorry about that. Nothing worse then misuse of cites, so I try to be as careful as possible. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/4 "2003-08-22T19:19:20Z")
I’m sure **Sam Stone** will be by any minute now to tell us how a news anchor on Fox News mentioned that 53% of Americans surveyed by The Free Republic apporved of Bush’s foreign policy, so therefore there’s no problem and this is all hysteria from the liberal media. Then **december** will swing by with a quote showing enthusiastic support for the President’s Middle East peace efforts, only it will turn out to be a reference to _Clinton’s_ presidency, and he’ll gloat at how he managed to fool the politicos of the SDMB once again. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/5 "2003-08-22T19:35:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*…Then **december** will swing by with a quote showing enthusiastic support for the President’s Middle East peace efforts, only it will turn out to be a reference to _Clinton’s_ presidency, and he’ll gloat at how he managed to fool the politicos of the SDMB once again. > > :rolleyes: \*\* I sense in you a kindred spirit on this issue, I too am a bit taken aback by it. However, try to look on the bright side! We can pretty much imply that a quote came from anyone (as long as it advances our particular ideology), and do so with no fear! Hell, we can mix and match quotes from two different people in convenient ways and when called on it, just say “oops” and move on. Yea, a new day is dawning in the fight against ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/6 "2003-08-22T19:57:17Z")
[I stand corrected](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3881068#post3881068) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/7 "2003-08-22T20:25:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Bush said last week that in deciding to go to war in Iraq, he made “…a tough decision to make the world more peaceful.” I hate when I do stuff like that. Just last week, after worrying about it for years, I realized that something just _had_ to be done about the level of disorganization in my house. So I rented nineteen rhesus monkeys, got them drunk, and set them about re-indexing my media collection, organizing my files, and arranging my kitchen more practically. It’s taking longer than I thought. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/8 "2003-08-22T20:29:09Z")
Well as far as national security, nothing has been hit domestically since 9/11 \ Can we at least acknowledge that? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/9 "2003-08-22T20:35:18Z")
Well, except the whole anthrax in the letters thing. And those sniper guys. And the constant sound of warning sirens from the department of homeland security. And the whole “duct tape and plastic” thing. If the people of the US want a peaceful homeland I’d say these things are not conducive towards achieving them. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/10 "2003-08-22T20:47:49Z")
How many fatalities can be attibuted to domestic Terror attacks since 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/11 "2003-08-22T20:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Well as far as national security, nothing has been hit domestically since 9/11 \ > > Can we at least acknowledge that? \*\* (assuming you mean foreign based terrorist acts) sure. Of course, what exactly that means is open to discussion. It could mean that Patroit Act has saved the day. It could mean that terrorists haven’t finalized a new plan to act on American soil yet. (remember there was a significant period of time between attacks on American Soil). It could also mean that there’s suddenly a huge influx of available American targets that are right next door to the terrorists base. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/12 "2003-08-22T20:53:34Z")
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not implying Bush is doing a stand up job protecting the homeland, but since the best you can throw out is a serial killer (Malvo and not even terror related), then he can’t be doing _too_ bad a job in respect to national defense. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/13 "2003-08-22T21:12:56Z")
He was doing a great job on Sept. 10, 2001 also. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/14 "2003-08-22T21:24:54Z")
So was Clinton on Feb. 25, 1993. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/15 "2003-08-22T22:00:28Z")
how about a response to my post, **WorldEater**. You seem to assume that the lack of verified attacks by foreign terrorists on American soil for the past two years is attributable to the efforts of the Bush team. I pointed out at least two alternate possabilities, both of which have some practical merit to them, rather than speculating about what ‘might’ have happened if the Patriot Act etc hadn’t been enacted. to repeat: 1. there was a significant amount of time between the first WTC bombing and 9/11. In fact, there often has been a period of a couple of years between large scale attacks against Americans - even off American soil (as in teh Cole bombing, the embassy bombings - which were planned to happen together, much like the 9/11 attacks). 2. Because of the invasions in both Afghanistan **and** Iraq, the availability of nearby American targets (nearby to assumed terrorist bases), has blossomed. Why plan for years for a large scale attack when a relatively small investment of time and personnel can achieve a Chinese water torture effect of near constant attacks? without having to worry about beating airport or border security? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/16 "2003-08-22T23:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*How many fatalities can be attibuted to domestic Terror attacks since 9/11? \*\* Weren’t there a couple of people who died, or were at least maimed, in the mailbombings from that loon who was trying to make a smiley face? And the sniper, he killed a few people, right? And the current sniper, he’s taken down two that I know of so far. Is the effectiveness of Homeland Security measured only by the activities of international terrorists and those other threats to the homeland don’t count? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/17 "2003-08-23T00:04:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*how about a response to my post, **WorldEater**. \*\* More then happy to reply. \*\* > [@](#): > > You seem to assume that the lack of verified attacks by foreign terrorists on American soil for the past two years is attributable to the efforts of the Bush team. \*\* The fact is we haven’t had a domestic attack since 9/11, and their could be a plethora of reasons why this is so. I think your alternate suggestions carry a lot of weight, and I think you are dead on with your logic. In addition to them, it’s very possible that other factors have played their roles as well, some of them perhaps being steps the administration took to protect the homeland. Seems reasonable to me. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. there was a significant amount of time between the first WTC bombing and 9/11. In fact, there often has been a period of a couple of years between large scale attacks against Americans - even off American soil (as in teh Cole bombing, the embassy bombings - which were planned to happen together, much like the 9/11 attacks).\*\* Hopefully they’ll be longer gaps, due to our thwarting of attacks. Only time will tell. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. Because of the invasions in both Afghanistan **and** Iraq, the availability of nearby American targets (nearby to assumed terrorist bases), has blossomed. Why plan for years for a large scale attack when a relatively small investment of time and personnel can achieve a Chinese water torture effect of near constant attacks? without having to worry about beating airport or border security? \*\* Well, while the UN blast was horrific, it was no 9/11, and that’s why we always need to keep our guard up. I do agree with you on this point though, it does bring the heat off the homeland. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/18 "2003-08-23T00:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > **Weren’t there a couple of people who died, or were at least maimed, in the mailbombings from that loon who was trying to make a smiley face? And the sniper, he killed a few people, right? And the current sniper, he’s taken down two that I know of so far. Is the effectiveness of Homeland Security measured only by the activities of international terrorists and those other threats to the homeland don’t count?** Are serial killers some new phenomenon? Are you seriously trying to blame Bush for the Beltway sniper? If so, take your meds. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/19 "2003-08-23T01:01:58Z")
Hey, I don’t care if you’re convinced or not. Knock yourself out. All I’m saying is that I know a lot of people who don’t feel all that secure in the homeland. Never caught the guy who mailed anthrax. Snipers can evade capture for weeks even in the DC area. The terror threat level rollercoaster and warnings coming out all the time. Warnings to go out and buy plastic sheeting and duct tape. With the blackouts people have become aware of how fragile our power grid is and that is going to keep some people up at night. No repeats of 9/11, so I guess if that’s the metric you’re using, then yep, doing a great job. I use the metric of “how safe do I feel” and many others I know do the same. The reality for me is that I don’t feel the administration is making effective progress in securing the homeland, while at the same time they seem to be stirring the hornet’s nest with their foreign policy. Your mileage may vary. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/20 "2003-08-23T01:11:36Z")
Everything Bush has touched will be a problem for him. Iraq, the envioronment…that will be a big one…the economy… almost as big as the envioronment. Bush does not have a lock on a second term. Why do you think [Georgewbush.com](http://Georgewbush.com) was born? They are scared. As well they should be. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906.md?page=2)