# Even National Security and Foreign Policy a problem for Bush now **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906 "2003-08-22T12:46:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/21 "2003-08-23T03:34:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Hey, I don’t care if you’re convinced or not. Knock yourself out. All I’m saying is that I know a lot of people who don’t feel all that secure in the homeland. Never caught the guy who mailed anthrax. Snipers can evade capture for weeks even in the DC area. The terror threat level rollercoaster and warnings coming out all the time. Warnings to go out and buy plastic sheeting and duct tape. With the blackouts people have become aware of how fragile our power grid is and that is going to keep some people up at night. No repeats of 9/11, so I guess if that’s the metric you’re using, then yep, doing a great job. I use the metric of “how safe do I feel” and many others I know do the same. The reality for me is that I don’t feel the administration is making effective progress in securing the homeland, while at the same time they seem to be stirring the hornet’s nest with their foreign policy. \*\* How sad. Sorry,bout your life. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/22 "2003-08-23T03:55:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mtgman \* > \*\*Hey, I don’t care if you’re convinced or not. Knock yourself out. All I’m saying is that I know a lot of people who don’t feel all that secure in the homeland. Never caught the guy who mailed anthrax. Snipers can evade capture for weeks even in the DC area. The terror threat level rollercoaster and warnings coming out all the time. Warnings to go out and buy plastic sheeting and duct tape. With the blackouts people have become aware of how fragile our power grid is and that is going to keep some people up at night. No repeats of 9/11, so I guess if that’s the metric you’re using, then yep, doing a great job. I use the metric of “how safe do I feel” and many others I know do the same. The reality for me is that I don’t feel the administration is making effective progress in securing the homeland, while at the same time they seem to be stirring the hornet’s nest with their foreign policy. > > Your mileage may vary. > > Enjoy, > Steven \*\* So essentially the Dept of Homeland security is responsible for bringing crime to historic lows and eliminating such things like black outs and salmonella outbreaks, which can ‘scare’ people. What do you propose they do differently? Again, I’m not saying “we haven’t had another attack, so they must be doing everything right”, at all. I’m suggesting that along with an entire laundry list of other factors, it’s _possible_ that the DOHS could be doing _a thing or two_ correctly. Not really an epoch-shattering assumption. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/23 "2003-08-23T04:03:09Z")
Let me get this straight, you are celebrating two horrific terrorist attacks? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/24 "2003-08-23T04:22:54Z")
Here’s an excellent summary of how badly Bush is failing in what were supposed to be his crowning achievements of making America safer. [http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,477355,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,477355,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/25 "2003-08-23T10:15:10Z")
**elf6c** That’s a pretty weak article for the basis of your statement. A **News Analysis** article in the Washington Post ciriticizes Bush? Not exactly “man bites dog”. Basically the writers have said: “Spineless Democrats have stuck their collective wet finger in the air and determined that public sentiment might allow them to attack Bush on foreign policy matters.” If they had any _cojones_ to begin with, they’d take a principled stand either for or against and not be so worried about public opinion. But we are talking about Polticians here. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/26 "2003-08-23T10:19:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Here’s an excellent summary of how badly Bush is failing in what were supposed to be his crowning achievements of making America safer. > > [http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,477355,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,477355,00.html) \*\* **minty green** , thanks for the cite. I’m disappointed that someone of your high intelligence has such respect for Karon’s article, which is merely a crude hit piece. E.g., here are some problems with the article.[ul][li]Three times it ties the war on terror into “going into the election season this fall.” First of all, Bush won’t be in the election season until the middle of 2004, since he has no primary opposition. Even if the war on terror were going as badly as Karon asserts, the election is a year and three months away. [_]Also, the war on terror succeeds or fails on its own. It’s not an election gimmick. [_]Karon says, “That victory in Afghanistan has been partial, at best.” The phrase “at best” is a false slur. It implies that there may have been no victory at all in Afghanistan. We did overthrow the Taliban and al Qaeda. The government in power is one we like. Rights are being extended to women. Al Qaeda isn’t using the country as a staging area for world terrorism. Many serious problems remain, but it’s ridiculous to imply that we might not have even had a partial victory.He claims that, [/li] “The resistance appears to diverse and growing, feeding on religious and nationalist resentment at the occupation and the anger of ordinary Iraqis at the failure of the U.S. to ensure security and restore such basics as electricity and water.” Why would ordinary Iraqis feel anger at the US? We’re working to improve the services, whereas the people we’re fighting are sabotaging them. Shouldn’t that lead ordinary Iraqis to support us and oppose our enemies? Karan evidently believes that Iraqis are idiots – that is, he believes they think like him. Basically, the article downplays all the US victories and overestimates the difficulties. It follows standard anti-Bush talking points, which you may find comfortable. But, a lot of assertions are untrue or wildly exaggerated. [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![county](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@county](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/county)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/27 "2003-08-23T11:01:14Z")
What I have “seen” being done to make me and mine safer is all dog and pony shit; to include some legislation that takes away personal liberties. What I have been “told” is being done does seem to be having an effect; mainly the tracking of foreigh nationals and actuclly looking at what some of these people are doing. I believe that 9/11 chould have been avoided = I find it amazing that no one effectively questioned that flight training. What I fear is continued erosion of my personal liberties at the hands of Bush/Ashcroft because of politics and/or insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/28 "2003-08-23T11:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\ ***minty green** , thanks for the cite. \*\*[blah blah blah] Mister Credibility launches the same tired and useless lies. Fuck off, **december** , you lying shitbag. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/29 "2003-08-23T14:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > First of all, Bush won’t be in the election season until the middle of 2004, since he has no primary opposition. Sad. It’s already election season, and some would point out that it’s always election season even for, and perhaps especially for, incumbents careful on managing their image. Also, Bush’s actions/inactions certainly do have an effect on the Democratic campaigns. > [@](#): > > Also, the war on terror succeeds or fails on its own. It’s not an election gimmick. Bullshit assertion here, too. You certainly know it’s not unreasonable to claim that he’s been shielding himself from all kinds of criticism by using the term. > [@](#): > > We did overthrow the Taliban and al Qaeda. The government in power is one we like. Etc. from the usual RW blogs. What about outside downtown Kabul? What you say is factually incorrect - or, since we’re in the Pit, you’re either a fantasist or a fucking liar. > [@](#): > > He claims that, > “The resistance appears to diverse and growing, feeding on religious and nationalist resentment at the occupation and the anger of ordinary Iraqis at the failure of the U.S. to ensure security and restore such basics as electricity and water.” > > Why would ordinary Iraqis feel anger at the US? You’re responding with what _you_ think “they” _should_ feel. Karon reports what “they” _do_ feel. There is ample reporting from almost any other source to support his assertion. There is essentially none to support any other view. There is no basis at all for thinking the people who live there and see what’s happening are less informed about their own lives than some pitiful schmuck sitting at a computer in a suburban tract house. Typical weaseling from you when confronted with reality - try to change the question. Unfortunately for you, most of us are at least as smart as you, and we recognize your fucking lying weasel tactics. It does get very, very tiresome having to continually take out the garbage when you insist on bringing it back into the house to spread it around some more. The problem with your relations with this board’s participants and management isn’t with everyone else; it’s just you. But you’ll never even consider that possibility, will you? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/30 "2003-08-23T16:45:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > Etc. from the usual RW blogs. What about outside downtown Kabul? Do you have a cite that Hamid Karzai governs only in downtown Kabul? Karzai’s government is now the official government of the country, e.g., for UN representation. Before the war, the Taliban were the official government. That’s reality. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/31 "2003-08-23T16:50:43Z")
DNFD. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/32 "2003-08-23T16:57:07Z")
You do read GD, if not the news, D. You know the answer to the first. To the second, “Official” don’t mean dick on the ground if the people actually in charge aren’t them - you know that too. You don’t have an answer for anything else I’ve given you, and it wasn’t hard at all for me either. Who the fuck do you think you’re fooling with this continuing trollery? Repeat, the problem is _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/33 "2003-08-23T17:06:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*So essentially the Dept of Homeland security is responsible for bringing crime to historic lows and eliminating such things like black outs and salmonella outbreaks, which can ‘scare’ people. > \*\* I don’t think that was his point. If the reason we haven’t seen any new terrorist attacks really was because the DOHS has made terrorism so much harder, then we shouldn’t be seeing two guys driving around DC randomly sniping people for weeks without getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/34 "2003-08-23T17:34:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you have a cite that Hamid Karzai governs only in downtown Kabul? That may hve been an exaggeration, although it is the commonly used shorthand for the situation: [Retired Brig. Gen. David Grange on CNN (February)](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/26/otsc.grange/) > [@](#): > > The different factions, in this case warlords, definitely control. They’re the voice of authority in certain areas in Afghanistan, and President Karzai has the minimal control. I think he’s a terrific leader, with U.S. backing and other international backing, but there’s a long way to go to go through the reconstruction of Afghanistan with the Democratic governance, a good market economy and the rule of law. It’s a tall order. [Paul Knox, Globe & Mail, Canada (May)](http://ccmep.org/2003_articles/afghanistan/051403_bush_afghanistan.htm) > [@](#): > > The Afghan President’s so-called allies are at least as worrisome as his enemies. Warlords who helped U.S. forces oust the Taliban regime were rewarded with control over vast tracts of territory. They have their own armies and collect their own taxes, which Mr. Karzai has sought in vain to have remitted to the central government. In Herat province, on the Iranian border, governor Ismail Khan has reimposed Taliban-style restrictions on women, including – according to a recent Newsweek account – “forced virginity checks.” In Kandahar, governor Gul Agha Shirzai is winning notoriety for his corrupt, eccentric ways. > > Mr. Karzai holds sway over very little territory outside Kabul, the capital. Even there, he has been forced to make concessions. He welcomed Sima Samar, the courageous physician who became a symbol of women’s resistance under the Taliban, into his government as women’s affairs minister. They traveled to Washington in January of 2002, for George W. Bush’s post-9/11 State of the Union address. But six months later, Mr. Karzai booted Dr. Samar out of the government at the insistence of Muslim leaders, after a false press report said she had rejected Islamic law. [Ron Synovitz, Radio Free Europe (May)](http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/05/15052003170204.asp) > [@](#): > > Stevenson said the ongoing power of regional warlords is, indeed, a direct threat to the stability of Karzai’s Transitional Authority: “Another factor, of course, is the military and political control of warlords who threaten the overall security and stability of the country. In doing so, [they] make it more vulnerable to terrorist co-optation – or at least to providing freedom of action for terrorists to move back into Afghanistan from the tribal areas of Pakistan, for example, where some of the Al-Qaeda and Taliban holdouts are decamped.” > . . . > During a February visit to the United States, Karzai himself downplayed the significance of warlordism in areas outside of Kabul. > > “I see a lot of the press reports, coming from the Western press especially, of warlords and provincial people [in control of areas outside of Kabul]. It is not like that. The government has much more authority and charge in the country than you can presume. It is probably better than lots of other countries around us,” Karzai said. > > Still, in his testimony to U.S. congressional committees in Washington, Karzai repeatedly stressed that the refusal of provincial officials to send revenues to the Transitional Authority is one of the key problems facing his administration. > . . . > It was reported earlier this week that the United States has started to put pressure on Karzai to get provincial governors to start sending revenues to Kabul. If true, those reports are ironic because Karzai himself has been the one urging the United States for help on the issue. Finally, in just the last week the news has shown some sign of improvement: [Washington Post: Afghan Governor Resigns As Karzai Asserts Control](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4409-2003Aug16.html) Although the story does note that > [@](#): > > In the 18 months since the Taliban fell, Karzai has come under increasing international criticism for failing to assert his authority outside Kabul, the capital. Warlords across the country have their own armies and a great deal of power. It will be nice if this turns out to be evidence that Karzai is _finally_ in control (although, given Afhanistan’s history, we may want to see a few more of these events before we stop holding our breaths). ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/35 "2003-08-24T03:28:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dryga\_Yes \* > \*\*I don’t think that was his point. If the reason we haven’t seen any new terrorist attacks really was because the DOHS has made terrorism so much harder, then we shouldn’t be seeing two guys driving around DC randomly sniping people for weeks without getting caught. \*\* I would imagine that most of their resources are looking at securing against events that could kill a shitload of people. This means securing airports so we don’t have a repeat of 9/11, triple checking truck drivers who have hazmat licenses, keeping an eye on someone who picks up 1000 pounds of fertizer, increasing security at our nuclear power plants, etc. As horrible as it sounds, I’m worried about the people who killed 3,000 people in an hour, not some nut that killed 10 people over the course of a few weeks. One other thing, the DOHS must have done something right, because IIRC Malvo is in custody. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/36 "2003-08-24T04:20:12Z")
Who knows, maybe I’m just paranoid. Getting daily reports on the status of and vulnerabilities in our nations critical infrastructure from the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI as part of my job may have colored my perceptions. I’m just saying that, as a fairly well-informed guy, I’ve got some worries that I see Mr. Bush making ineffectual progress towards resolving. Admittedly they’re sticky issues, but progress should be possible. OTOH there is **Read\_Neck** , who is living proof that ignorance is bliss. Six of one, half a dozen of the other I guess. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/37 "2003-08-24T17:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > **As horrible as it sounds, I’m worried about the people who killed 3,000 people in an hour, not some nut that killed 10 people over the course of a few weeks.** So if there is an attack on the “homeland” by foreign terrorists that _only_ kills 10 people, still the DOHS is succesful? > [@](#): > > One other thing, the DOHS must have done something right, because IIRC Malvo is in custody. 😉 Malvo is in custody because he was stupid enough to park in a public rest area in a car littered with ammunition and guns, and then go to sleep. More importantly, he was captured because the police officers in the metro DC area worked very well together and they had help from law enforcement agencies across the country. The DOHS didn’t run the show. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/38 "2003-08-24T18:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mornea \* > **So if there is an attack on the “homeland” by foreign terrorists that _only_ kills 10 people, still the DOHS is succesful?** We are really comparing apples and oranges here, because for one the Beltway sniper was not a foreign terrorist. Wouldn’t it make more sense to wait until we have a _foreign terrorist sniper_ on the loose before we have this ridiculous discussion? Terrorist snipers? Zero Domestic terror attacks? Zero Assumption? Easier choice of targets overseas. Regrouping of terror cells has hampered abilty to carry out new domestic attack. New agencies created since 9/11 have twarted a couple of possible attacks, intentionally or unintentionally. Conclusion? We have no fucking idea other then that someone is either doing their job, or someone is not doing it. \*\* > [@](#): > > Malvo is in custody because he was stupid enough to park in a public rest area in a car littered with ammunition and guns, and then go to sleep. \*\* He is also in custody because of a vicious manhunt and the intelligence infrastructure that was put in place to capitalize on any mistake he made. \*\* > [@](#): > > More importantly, he was captured because the police officers in the metro DC area worked very well together and they had help from law enforcement agencies across the country. \*\* Well the purpose of the DOHS is to defend the homeland against a terror attack right? Other law enforcement agencies still exist and they obviously performed their jos well. \*\* > [@](#): > > The DOHS didn’t run the show. \*\* Good for them, there was no need, this wasn’t a terror attack. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/39 "2003-08-24T20:42:08Z")
The ugly truth, I suspect, is that BinLaden and the boys will hit the US when and where they chose. That they haven’t chosen to hit us again means, I suspect, only that they haven’t chosen to hit us yet. When the Homeland security people can tell us that they have thwarted a real scheme to do the US bad, whether it be a oil pipe line somewhere in the Middle East, or the Sears Tower, or the Golden Gate Bridge or the Bridges of Madison County, or an embassy in East Africa, I’ll accept the idea that we are dealing with something more than very elaborate and expensive window dressing. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906/40 "2003-08-24T20:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > \*\*How sad. Sorry,bout your life. \*\* Thank God, a content-less personal attack from the drive-by king. I was sad for a while that you didn’t think my thread was worthy of your world-class debating skills. But seeing you have graced us with your style and wit, all is right in the world. Bless you! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-national-security-and-foreign-policy-a-problem-for-bush-now/196906.md?page=3)