# Even Nixon looks good after 6 years of Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2006, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508 "2006-11-15T12:00:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/21 "2006-11-15T15:50:26Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] šŸ˜ƒ I understand that Pierce defenders say the ā€œplague rat breeding pitsā€ did exist, but they were transfered secretly to Guatemala before the invasion. [/QUOTE] And from that point onwards to anywhere in Central or South America United Fruit coincidentally had an interest. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/22 "2006-11-15T15:52:56Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] šŸ˜ƒ I understand that Pierce defenders say the ā€œplague rat breeding pitsā€ did exist, but they were transfered secretly to Guatemala before the invasion. [/QUOTE] And letā€™s not forget the ā€˜Balsa Wood Drones of Deathā€™ poised ready to swoop on the continental United States at 15 minutes notice. No -wait - that was Bush. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/23 "2006-11-15T17:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Diā€™Chi of Tricor] > **[James Buchanan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan)** > > James Buchanan Jr.\[a\] (April 23, 1791 ā€“ June 1, 1868) was the 15th president of the United States, serving from 1857 to 1861. A Democrat from Pennsylvania, he upheld a pro-slavery interpretation of the U.S. Constitution that did little to reverse the sectional crisis between the North and South. In his final months in office, seven Southern states seceded, forming the Confederacy. On April 12, 1861, Confederate forces attacked Fort Sumter, starting the American Civil War. During his time as... Buchanan basically just sat there & dithered while the South seceded. He was too dumb or too nerveless to act, & just dumped the whole Civil War into Lincolnā€™s lap. He didnā€™t even fire up recruiting or purchasing for the Regular Army, for gosh sake! [/QUOTE] The Civil War was always going to happen; it was just a question of when. Jefferson wrote about the likelihood and causes of such a conflict, nearly fifty years ahead of time. Blaming the Civil War on Buchanan is like blaming WWI on the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand. But Bush has been The Decider for pretty much all the bad stuff in his Presidency except 9/11 itself, and thereā€™s a good argument that his nonresponse to repeated warnings about the danger that bin Laden and al-Qaeda represented, allowed the 9/11 attacks to happen. Bush is the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/24 "2006-11-15T17:14:08Z")
I was discussing this with someone at work yesterday: Iā€™m old enough to have hated Nixon, but thought he was a basically smart, capable guy who had some serious mental and emotional issues. I disagreed strongly with Carter, Reagan and Bush Sr. on many issues, but thought they were decent guys trying to do their best, who had no business in the White House. Theyā€™d make nice next-door-neighbors or uncles, but . . . But the current Bush? Even I have trouble analyzing my visceral hatred of him. I literally lunge for the remote when he comes on TV so I donā€™t have to see his face or hear his voice. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/25 "2006-11-15T17:17:54Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] ā€¦ Bush is a dry drunk toddler trying to sit in the grownupā€™s chair. He got to play with daddyā€™s government, broke it, and now daddyā€™s people have to fix it for him. [/QUOTE] Thatā€™s the story of GWBā€™s whole life. He screwed up everything he ever tried. When his companies were on the verge of bankruptcy, Daddyā€™s pals swooped in and made everything happy again. Nixon had to resign because he was about to be impeached for warrantless wiretaps on his political enemies. When GWB was caught doing the same thing, the Rubberstamp Congress cooked up a law making it all legal. If Nixon had a Rubberstamp Congress, he would have finished his second term with impunity. Nixon was crazy, and he had no reservations about breaking the law when it suited him. He tried to keep it secret, though. When he violated peopleā€™s constitutional rights, he didnā€™t have the chutzpah to cast it into the concrete of law. Some of his pals may have gotten favored treatment, but he never had the blatant, naked profiteering we have seen under GWB. I hated Dick Nixon, but George W. has strived to push the envelope beyond Nixonā€™s treachery. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/26 "2006-11-15T17:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] The Civil War was always going to happen; it was just a question of when. Jefferson wrote about the likelihood and causes of such a conflict, nearly fifty years ahead of time. Blaming the Civil War on Buchanan is like blaming WWI on the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand. But Bush has been The Decider for pretty much all the bad stuff in his Presidency except 9/11 itself, and thereā€™s a good argument that his nonresponse to repeated warnings about the danger that bin Laden and al-Qaeda represented, allowed the 9/11 attacks to happen. Bush is the worst. [/QUOTE] If weā€™re talking about unnecessary loss of life and irreparable damage to American prestige and credibility, why donā€™t we go right to the number 1 person: Lyndon Baines Johnson. Can anyone say ā€œGulf of Tonkinā€ with me? How about 58,000+ American deaths and many millions of Vietnamese/Laotian/Thai/Cambodian deaths? Oh, yeah, letā€™s not forget the civil rights riots and draft riots here at home. Bush, my friends, is a piker in the face of that. A mere amateur, a wannabe. Iā€™m certainly not defending the man, but letā€™s keep things in perspective here. I would be hard pressed to argue that Bush doesnā€™t belong somewhere near the bottom of the list, but he is objectively NOT the worst President weā€™ve ever had. No way. ---
**Author:** ![Manatee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@Manatee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manatee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/27 "2006-11-15T18:04:10Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Some of his pals may have gotten favored treatment, but he never had the blatant, naked profiteering we have seen under GWB. [/QUOTE] Harding might give him a run for his money, though. Heā€™s long been my benchmark of Presidential incompetency. ---
**Author:** ![Manatee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@Manatee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manatee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/28 "2006-11-15T18:08:26Z")
[QUOTE=Eve] I disagreed strongly with Carter, Reagan and Bush Sr. on many issues, but thought they were decent guys trying to do their best, who had no business in the White House. Theyā€™d make nice next-door-neighbors or uncles, but . . . [/QUOTE] Not looking for a fight, but I am interested in hearing why you think Carter had no business being in the White House (absolutely no argument on Reagan; very, very little on Bush Sr.). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/29 "2006-11-15T18:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] If weā€™re talking about unnecessary loss of life and irreparable damage to American prestige and credibility, why donā€™t we go right to the number 1 person: Lyndon Baines Johnson. Can anyone say ā€œGulf of Tonkinā€ with me? How about 58,000+ American deaths and many millions of Vietnamese/Laotian/Thai/Cambodian deaths? Oh, yeah, letā€™s not forget the civil rights riots and draft riots here at home. [/QUOTE] Youā€™re right. Still, heā€™s working at it. Heā€™s not gonna get that many U.S. soldiers killed but heā€™s fucked Iraq up pretty well, although I donā€™t know enough about current Vietnam society to contrast and compare. Depending on the source some 1-1.5 million Iraqis had fled the country (often the most educated), 500,000 dead, bare bones or no infrastructure depending on the locale, and who knows how many wounded/ruined families. Weā€™re getting into a groove. Just let it simmer for a another five years or so and we can play catch up. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/30 "2006-11-15T18:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] The Civil War was always going to happen; it was just a question of when. Jefferson wrote about the likelihood and causes of such a conflict, nearly fifty years ahead of time. Blaming the Civil War on Buchanan is like blaming WWI on the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand. But Bush has been The Decider for pretty much all the bad stuff in his Presidency except 9/11 itself, and thereā€™s a good argument that his nonresponse to repeated warnings about the danger that bin Laden and al-Qaeda represented, allowed the 9/11 attacks to happen. Bush is the worst. [/QUOTE] I do not blame Buchanan for the War, I blame him for his fiddling inaction & indecisiveness. I envision him in the White House, wringing his hands, & going: ā€œOh dear! Oh my!ā€ :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/31 "2006-11-15T19:09:06Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] If weā€™re talking about unnecessary loss of life and irreparable damage to American prestige and credibility, why donā€™t we go right to the number 1 person: Lyndon Baines Johnson. Can anyone say ā€œGulf of Tonkinā€ with me? How about 58,000+ American deaths and many millions of Vietnamese/Laotian/Thai/Cambodian deaths? Oh, yeah, letā€™s not forget the civil rights riots and draft riots here at home. Bush, my friends, is a piker in the face of that. A mere amateur, a wannabe. Iā€™m certainly not defending the man, but letā€™s keep things in perspective here. I would be hard pressed to argue that Bush doesnā€™t belong somewhere near the bottom of the list, but he is objectively NOT the worst President weā€™ve ever had. No way. [/QUOTE] Thank you. Iā€™m not trying to defend GWB either, but some of you folks need to pick up some history books. Thereā€™s more than a few people still alive that blame FDR for turning the federal government into Santa Clause and creating the entitlement mindset in the USA. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by AskNott > Some of his pals may have gotten favored treatment, but he never had the blatant, naked profiteering we have seen under GWB. Look up Credit Mobilierā€™ (sp?) ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/32 "2006-11-15T19:32:46Z")
I apologize, [BOLD]Asknott[/BOLD], I misread ā€œhe never hadā€ as ā€œweā€™ve never hadā€ when I directed your attention to Credit Mobilierā€™. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/33 "2006-11-15T19:40:16Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] If weā€™re talking about unnecessary loss of life and irreparable damage to American prestige and credibility, why donā€™t we go right to the number 1 person: Lyndon Baines Johnson. Can anyone say ā€œGulf of Tonkinā€ with me? How about 58,000+ American deaths and many millions of Vietnamese/Laotian/Thai/Cambodian deaths? Oh, yeah, letā€™s not forget the civil rights riots and draft riots here at home. [/QUOTE] Iā€™ll give you Vietnam, but civil rights riots? The Civil Rights Acts would never have passed without LBJā€™s ability to manipulate Congress. JFK got nowhere on them. They were nowhere near a sure bet, especially with the senior Southern Democrats in Congress. That alone is enough to keep him off the bottom - what has Bush done nearly as important for the country? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/34 "2006-11-15T20:16:38Z")
[QUOTE=Tully Mars] Thereā€™s more than a few people still alive that blame FDR for turning the federal government into Santa Clause and creating the entitlement mindset in the USA. [/QUOTE] You meanā€¦THAT MAN in the White House? That _class-traitor_? [sub]I understand his name is actually Franklin Delano ROSENFELD.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/35 "2006-11-15T20:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=Eve] I was discussing this with someone at work yesterday: Iā€™m old enough to have hated Nixon, but thought he was a basically smart, capable guy who had some serious mental and emotional issues. I disagreed strongly with Carter, Reagan and Bush Sr. on many issues, but thought they were decent guys trying to do their best, who had no business in the White House. Theyā€™d make nice next-door-neighbors or uncles, but . . . [/QUOTE] I can see that for Carter and Reagan, but Bush I? He arguably had the best background of any President since LBJ. Disagree all you want, but he was CIA director, amabassador to China, and Vice President, not a shoddy resume. And remember, he was smart enough not to go after Saddam after Gulf War I, showing he and Powell were a lot smarter than the neocons. Much, much smarter than his incompetent son. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/36 "2006-11-15T20:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] If weā€™re talking about unnecessary loss of life and irreparable damage to American prestige and credibility, why donā€™t we go right to the number 1 person: Lyndon Baines Johnson. Can anyone say ā€œGulf of Tonkinā€ with me? How about 58,000+ American deaths and many millions of Vietnamese/Laotian/Thai/Cambodian deaths? Oh, yeah, letā€™s not forget the civil rights riots and draft riots here at home. Bush, my friends, is a piker in the face of that. A mere amateur, a wannabe. Iā€™m certainly not defending the man, but letā€™s keep things in perspective here. I would be hard pressed to argue that Bush doesnā€™t belong somewhere near the bottom of the list, but he is objectively NOT the worst President weā€™ve ever had. No way. [/QUOTE] Johnson is a good case. I think he was a much worse President than Nixon was, but compared to Bush, I am not so sure. He pushed through much of the Civil rights reforms that Kennedy tried to get in. This helps balance his terrible Vietnam policies to some extent. I would have to put a lot more thought into Johnson, I think Bush is worse, but much of this is Bushā€™s poor speaking skills, disregard for rights and deceptively getting us involved in the Iraq war and abusing the good soldier Colin Powell and destroying his very good reputation to further the corrupt policies of the Bush administration. I think Johnson was corrupt, but the sweetheart deals made by the current admin to friends of the current admin, harkens back more to the Teapot Dome scandal than anything more recent. **Bosda** , I cannot agree Buchanan was worse. He was even more inept, I will give you, but his administration did not start the war and did not meet the corruptness of the current admin. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/37 "2006-11-15T20:44:39Z")
[QUOTE=Manatee] Not looking for a fight, but I am interested in hearing why you think Carter had no business being in the White House (absolutely no argument on Reagan; very, very little on Bush Sr.). [/QUOTE] Iā€™m not speaking for **Eve** on this, but I remember Carterā€™s election being a reaction to Nixon and the damage he had done to the Presidency. These men are polar opposites of each other - in appearance, beliefs, in every way imaginable. Carter was a true outsider unblemished by the shit that just gone down for the previous 8 years. But the man was very ineffective in taking the reins in hand and moving on. He, like Ford before him, just reacted to what was happening in the country instead of taking steps to change things. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/38 "2006-11-15T21:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sean Factotum] Iā€™m not speaking for **Eve** on this, but I remember Carterā€™s election being a reaction to Nixon and the damage he had done to the Presidency. These men are polar opposites of each other - in appearance, beliefs, in every way imaginable. Carter was a true outsider unblemished by the shit that just gone down for the previous 8 years. But the man was very ineffective in taking the reins in hand and moving on. He, like Ford before him, just reacted to what was happening in the country instead of taking steps to change things. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I saw Carter as a good person, but naive and too soft. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/39 "2006-11-15T21:14:12Z")
Whatā€™s the standard of badness, here? Regardless what the end result of Johnsonā€™s policies were, and whether they were right at the time, he did get things done. He got both sides to work together on civil rights ā€” how many times has Bush been the uniter and the politicker Johnson was? I put Bush down there with Buchanan: both took a strong stand based on their personal morals, and bankrupted the credibility of their political party through pointless infighting while accomplishing pretty much bugger all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508/40 "2006-11-15T21:18:10Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Nitpick. Nixon cut and ran, ending direct US involvement. The Vietnam Civil War went on until the north won it. [/QUOTE] Not quite. Nixon pulled the troops out, but promised S. Vietnam that weā€™d come to their aid if the Vietnamization effort proved insufficient to stave off an invasion from the North. But, after Nixon resigned, Congressed passed a bill forbidding the US to re-engage in Vietnam. Itā€™s unclear if the N. Vietnamese could have won the war if we had honored the promise that Nixon made. Also, keep in mind that the Democrats controlled the Senate (not sure about the House) for the entire time Nixon was in office. Quite a bit of a different situation that our own GW Bush found himself in for the last 6 years. n.b.: Iā€™m not saying we should have gone back in to Vietnam, but the war wasnā€™t lost simply because we left-- it was lost because we left _and stayed out_, which wasnā€™t Nixonā€™s fault, but Congressā€™. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/even-nixon-looks-good-after-6-years-of-bush/380508.md?page=3)