Ever appropriate for a kid to respond to non-physical bullying with phys. violence?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I don’t know. I was a complete pacifist in school, yet nobody ever messed with me. I found it fairly easy to only hang around crowds that weren’t bully friendly. I mean, even if they are in your class, they can’t really bully you there. And absolutely nobody wanted to hang out at school before or after hours. And there was always an adult around that you could stay close to.

Of course, since I’ve never been bullied, I don’t really understand the problem. The one thing I do think is funny is that there have been more fights, more threats, and just more bullying at the school I used to go to, AFTER they implemented the no bullying rule.

22

There is such a thing as “fighting words” (yes, as in “them’s fightin’ words”)

So while legally not necessarily a defense, by the law of the playground, your kid is probably entitled to take a swing at some punk who gets in his face.
I was a kid in the 70s and 80s and I have to say it seems like things are a lot different these days. Or maybe I was just taught different. Here’s how I remember childhood:
-Kids lived in a different world from adults. Parents and teachers were treated like Stalag guards to be avoided. In other words no tattling.
-If you keep shooting your mouth off, you better had be able to back it up or you were likely to get a punch
-Bullies exist and teachers/parents can’t be around 24/7. You had better figure out how to stand up to them.
-Kids got into fights. That was just part of growing up. Usually you just got yelled at by a teacher or parent and grounded or maybe suspended for a day.
-As a general rule, it was better to make a good showing of a fight and lose than to back down from one.
-Kids like to fuck with each other - pranks, smack talk whatever. If you can’t give as good as you get, you are going to encourage others to fuck with you and what started as an annoying joke will turn into constant abuse.
-Mock violence seemed to be more part of ordinary play - charlie horses, the hand slapping game, 2 4 flinching, just wrestling around (maybe just because I had a lot of wrestlers on my freshman hall), contact sports. So you had more opportunity to prove how “tough” you were without actually beating the crap out of each other for real.
-There is this concept of “rep”. You stand up to someone who gets in your face, your rep improves. You back down from a fight, your rep goes down.
-Assault & battery? What assault? You get jumped by 5 guys with bats and someone goes to the hospital, that’s assault. Two guys get into it resulting in a few black eyes or swollen lips, whatever.

I’m not sayings school was like an episode of Oz or anything. But kids just seemed tougher back then from what I hear on this message board. I think we spent a lot more time outside and away from the watchful eyes of teachers and parents. Kids these days seem like these fat, pathetic, Ridlin popping emos who are constantly under guard from overly fearful parents and teachers who think that the slightest outburst of assertiveness is going to turn into the next Colombine.

Probably because before that rule, it was never reported.

23

I wish I had beaten the holy crap out of everyone who picked on me in school. Maybe it wouldn’t have gone over so well at home, but then it might not have taken me so long to be able to look at myself in the mirror.

24

Note I said dealing non-violently FIRST. Violence should be a last resort if all else fails…as long as you’re sure you can do it without getting your ass kicked in return. (Sadly, that’s probably what would have happened in my case, as the girl who was giving me shit in high school was twice my size) Life, sadly, isn’t always a Hollywood movie where the kid pops the bully who never bothers anyone again.

However, read my post again-I didn’t say NEVER. Just, not your first option.

25

I did get picked on non-physically in school, and I think it probably would’ve ended sooner if I’d taken some judicious swings at people. It’s probably not “appropriate,” and I think today it would likely be more trouble than it’s worth, but looking back that’s how I feel about it. These kids were mostly after easy targets, and that’s not someone who hits you in the mouth.

26

There’s a lot of good advice here. My nature as a child was generally pretty docile; I was asthmatic and not at all athletic (and skinny). So on occasion I got picked on. I used all of the tricks - cracking jokes, running away, etc. - but I never felt happy about how I handled being picked on. I certainly wasn’t the class whipping boy nor was I unpopular, but I wasn’t untouchable.

Then, one day on the playground, I got into some kind of argument with a kid, probably a year or two younger than me. His older brothers (a year or two older than me) used to pick on me so I guess he thought he could have a go. So after some level of provocation I socked him in the nose. And yes, the nose bled. His mom lost it and came over to my parents to complain. My dad calmly pointed out that I was a pretty peaceful kid, but if the events happened as I described them, the kid had it coming to him, and reminded her of all the crap I’d taken from her other kids.

I still got fussed at, and I caught some crap from some kids who thought I shouldn’t have hit a younger kid (think like a seventh grader hitting a fifth grader). But for the most part, nobody ever picked on me again. Maybe it was a reputation thing, or just the way I carried myself afterward. Who knows? I didn’t deal with bullies again until I was in high school, and the bullies tended to carry weapons, so that was a different kettle of fish altogether.

I think as a parent now I would tell my kid that it’s never okay to let people push you around - that you should use your words, try to find a common place of agreement, tell a teacher - but if all those fail, you might have to show a bully that you won’t take their crap. Bullies get their very status by finding kids to push around. I think if it’s addressed early the bully and the bullied are helped, I think.

I taught elementary school, and I can assure you I only caught about 50 percent of the shit between kids. There are some mean, sly kids out there, and they will lie to your face as they torment weaker or quieter kids. You have to learn to stand up for yourself, and learn that lesson early. (Some of the biggest curricular issues in PK and K, and even 1st grade is socialization.) Late elementary, middle, and high schools are a different ballgame altogether. Parents, teachers, and responsible adults aren’t always around so all kids need to know how to take care of themselves, and it might require a shove or a fist every now and then. But never as a first response and always with an understanding that the consequences that follow will have to endured. (Case in point, I got into a fight with a kid in middle school - I was definitely provoked and the kid had it coming - but I had to serve a detention, and my parents supported the punishment, even though the other kid started it.)

27

Yeah, junior high is the epitome of dick bullies. I was unfortunately the smallest kid in school, having skipped a half a grade and being small to start out with. Plus I was damned near blind with coke bottle glasses. Hell, I weighed 113 pounds when II entered college. So, what happens in the first day of P.E.? Some 180 pound bully totally clocks me in touch football, knocking off all the scabs on me from my near death bicycle accident the day before junior high started. I just got back up again, and the real bullies did not really harass me much.

Then there was *ddie *eyes. Wow, what a dick! He was the second smallest dude in school and incessantly harassed me throughout wood shop. If I didn’t have the coke bottle glasses, I’m pretty sure I could have kicked his ass. God, what a moron that piece of shit was. I suspect he ended up in prison.

OK, my brother is 5 years older than me. He psychologically harassed me for all of my childhood. Finally, I whipped him with a belt, leaving a buckle mark on his leg. After that, he was a lot more circumspect in his harassment. When we were adults, I told him, “Man, you were always a dick to me when I was a kid. WTF?”. He really didn’t have a good answer. We get along much better now.

My junior high was a rather bizarre and cruel place. It was poor enough to have an amazing math and TV studio built with no 90° angles. We had our own PDP-8 in 1970. We actually had a program on the PBS TV station KCET. Unfortunately, my teacher didn’t let my drawing of Daniel Ellsberg go on air because he thought it made him look like a felon. It is now a school for the arts.

The school had about 75% latinos and the last day of school was called “Paddy Day”. This was the day that some of the dick latino kids would wander around school and beat the crap out anyone who was white. I’m asian, so no one ever beat me up. My next door neighbor was a strapping white kid who ended up being about 6’ 6" tall and was a pretty fearsome mofo by the time he was in 9th grade. He wore his steel toed boots and swore that he was going to take out as many dudes as he could. He seemed to be no worse for the wear after Paddy Day turned into Paddy Week when I was in the 9th grade.

It was really sad that the administrators did not appear to be able to do anything about it. Several kids got put into the hospital due to broken bones. I actually got a very good education and had some awesome teachers.

Another weird experience was running into the head bully from my elementary school while visiting a friend after I’d graduated from college. His comment was, “Wow, you are still short”. Yeah, I thought, “Wow, you are still a stupid worthless dick .”. I don’t think I ever felt better about myself.

28

If someone fucked with me when I was a kid, they got hit. Consequently, I was bullied very rarely, and I usually wound up becoming friends with the bully.

I also, for better or worse, did my fair share of bullying in high school, and I can say with some certainty that my friends and I would have stopped giving various kids so much shit if they had responded to our goading with a punch in the mouth. (People can change, by the way.)

Standing up to bullies is the only way to make them stop.

It’s also important to make your kids understand that these rules no longer apply past a certain age, and that while it may be okay to hit a kid in the face in school, out in the “real world” you are going to have to consider the potential consequences of such an act, if you decide to do it - including being charged with battery, or being sued.

29

Well, I wasn’t big enough to beat the crap out of everyone who ever fucked with me, but it seemed to me that just the mere act of standing up to a bully was enough.

I also started playing ice hockey in high school. I have to tell you, I’m not much of a “jock”, but people do look at you a lot differently once you put on a school uniform for a contact sport.

I hate to say it, but life’s rewards go to the people who go after them agressively. I’ve read enough sob stories on this message board to confirm that a passive, not confrontational lifestyle leads to a very unhappy life.

30

I’ve been thinking about this over the past day and I wanted to qualify some of my statements. It’s pretty clear that what’s lacking in this scenario is an atmosphere in school that actively discourages bullying (and I don’t mean a simple ‘no bullying’ rule and nothing more) - something involving not just the parents and the teachers, but the kids themselves. I haven’t done much research on what’s done here in Sweden but many schools do have anti-bullying programs where the students themselves take the lead; I honestly think that would have more of an effect on the phenomenon than teachers alone, or even teachers with parents. Frankly, when an 11-year-old hangs himself because of a metric shitload of homophobic bullying, it’s clear to me that we’re well past the time when such measures ought to be tried in the States.

None of this is to say that I’m changing my mind on defensive violence as a response to bullying. It isn’t restricted to the schoolyard and can happen anytime. It just narrows the circumstances down a lot. If a student insisted on bullying someone despite everything else that might be done, I wouldn’t have much sympathy for him if he got popped but good.

31

Normally I’d say that a pop in the mouth is the only thing that will get some bullies to stop, but that stops around middle school here. I work in juvenile court, and a lot of high schools and even a few middle schools will charge both students involved in a mutual fight with disorderly conduct, or the primary aggressors with assault if the school can tell who started it.

32

I grew up in the not so kind and gentle 70s … in 7th grade I did a stint at the local public school and was absolutely tormented by the damned bitches in my class verbally and a bit of light shoving in lines, minor destruction of property.

The final straw was after a day of verbal abuse, and a major art project being destroyed, I got called into the principals office with a teacher and one of the girls that had been tormenting me. She had a bite mark on her arm, and claimed I did it. she was holding out her arm, and i just grabbed her by the wriist and bit her fairly hard. I then pointed out that my toothmarks had little pointy brace marks around the bite, and her previous one didnt, so obviously I didnt bite her. I walked out of the office. I didnt hear a damned thing about the incident after that, and she and her fucking cronies left me the fuck alone.

33

When I worked in an elementary school, there was a child who was always imagining perceived bullying of him and his siblings. Because his Mom had told him it was OK to fight someone when he felt psychologically harassed, he would clock kids who tagged him too many times in freeze tag, or who accidentally bumped into him.

That’s not a problem with the content of the advice to respond to non-physical bullying with violence–this kid just couldn’t properly draw the line between bullying and normal behavior. But it does mean that parents giving this advice to their kids should be sure their kids know the difference between defending against bullies and being one. In my experience, parents are sometimes unable or unwilling to tell the difference.

34

I came in to say what a lot of other people have said.

Basically, there comes a time when you’ve done all the talking you can do, all the walking away you can do, and it doesn’t end things.

+SMACK+.

Amazing how many times THAT ends things.

Contrary to the politically correct belief; talking does not and cannot solve every problem in the world.
Had a guy in high school who would constantly do shit to me, punch me in the back, kicked me in the back, spat on me, etc. School officials did nothing. Then one day I grabbed him and fought back and partially kicked his ass right in front of his friends, then walked away without completing the job when I had him at my mercy. He followed me to another area where he punched me in the throat and I smacked him a couple of times and, while I can’t say that I “won”, I did make him look bad in front of others, because he obviously wasn’t the tough guy he’d been made out to be and he sure wasn’t kicking my pussy ass.

We got pulled into the office where we got the usual “I don’t care who started it” crap and threatened with suspension. I then clearly stated that I’d brought this to their attention before and nothing was done, and that the next time this guy hit me, I was going to do everything in my power to put him in the hospital that time and every other time he ever messed with me again. Of course, the Principal went nuts, but I held my ground.

Never got hit again. A little verbal abuse, but pointing out how he’d failed to beat me when he had the chance and asking about a couple of the hits I’d given him usually led to him slinking away trailing more insults.

35

For a while, I had a duty where I spent a period in the in-school suspension room. Invariably, when kids were in there for fighting, it was always the other guy who started it, and they felt all martyred that they had to serve suspension for fighting. My response to them was always, “If you feel you need to hit someone, do it. But then, don’t be surprised or upset when you get punished. If it’s not worth it to get a couple of days of in-school, then it wasn’t worth throwing the punch.” That’s what I plan to tell my own kid. Do what you need to do, then pay the piper. The penalties are very clearly laid out for you, so you can make an informed decision. Of course, this wouldn’t work with really small kids, but middle school kids can do the math just fine.

36

Probably not, but I was only 7, the snotty bitch was asking for it, and it had the happy result of getting me kicked out of Brownies since the troop leader was also the harrassing bitch’s mom. I hated Brownies. It kept me from watching Dark Shadows.

37

I just want to know if I’m the only one who would have gotten my ass kicked if I had hit back at the girl who was picking on me? This girl was HUGE.
(And before anyone says she would have respected me-let me note that she was THREATENING to kick my ass anyways.)

38

I used to have this debate with my mother. Any time anyone would say anything the least bit out of line I’d respond with “You want to take this outside? No? Then shut up or I’ll do it for you.”

Now 99% of the time it worked and the few times it didn’t a quick pop in the mouth stopped it from ever happening again. By the time I hit high school, no one bothered me, 'cause even if you could beat me up, I’d make darn well sure you were hurt enough in the process to not make that worth your while.

My mum was “Mark you can’t go around in life solving your problems with your fists.” And I’d answer “But it WORKS!!” And then I’d tell her that I wasn’t trying to solve all my problems just the ones that required that solution

All these kids that failed to stand up for themselves were bullied horribly. I’ll admit it’s a bit different, in my day the WORST you’d get if you lost a fight was a black eye or a fat lip. Now you can get shot with a gun or stabbed.

I don’t think violence is THE answer, but it is AN answer.

39

I did something similar with a guy who was picking on me in and was considerably larger. One day in Electronics class, as I had to talk past his desk, the thought flashed into my head and I pounded him hard across the back of the head with a heavy book swung with both hands. Of course, the guy could have, and was fully intending to kick the shit out of me.

“Yup, you can. But every day after this you’d better watch your back and look closely around every corner, because I’m going to get you back for every time you hit me, and I’m going to do it however I have to do it. And next time it won’t be a book, it will be one of those.” (pointing at a 20 pound old style classroom electric transformer thingy)

Fortunately, that teacher, who had been paying close attention the whole time, suddenly became disinterested and walked away when bully boy started whining to him. Oh, I still got shoved to the ground, but I didn’t get beat silly, and he definitely lost interest in picking on me.