# Ever asked your minister the "rock question"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918 "2003-11-18T16:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![crazy\_grady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@crazy\_grady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crazy_grady)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/1 "2003-11-18T16:22:36Z")
To people who believe in God/Supreme Being, Have you ever heard the question, “Can God make a rock that He himself cannot pick up?” It sounds stupid at first, but then once the question sinks in, to me, a profound question. The answer to the question, either way, limits a being/force that is supposed to be unlimited. Has anyone ever asked their minister, preacher, rabbi, iman, holy man, or any other holy employee this question? What do they say? A cop out answer would be that “God is beyond our deminsional thoughts and reasonings”, or something to that effect. Go to church, ask the question, and tell me what the answer is. GRADY ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/2 "2003-11-18T16:38:48Z")
You [might](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22571) [want](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165520) to [use](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183850) the [search feature](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?) to see if something that may have been discussed several times before has been discussed several times before… ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/3 "2003-11-18T17:40:24Z")
Please demonstrate that God MUST be bound by the rules of human logic. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/4 "2003-11-18T17:50:26Z")
**Dogface** , what is “human logic” (as opposed to some other kind of logic)? Nonsense does not cease to be nonsense just because you put the words “God can…” in front of it. [Borrowed from C. S. Lewis, if I remember correctly] ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/5 "2003-11-18T17:53:02Z")
Firstly: there’s no such thing as “human logic”. There is only logic. Secondly: if God cannot be accurately described by human language, then the proposed paradox isn’t relevant – but neither are any of the claims made about God’s nature. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Either God is beyond knowing, making any and all thought about the matter pointless and meaningless, or the properties it is asserted He has truly apply and there are necessary limits on His nature, thus contradicting many of the claims about Him. Either way, **Dogface** , you lose. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/6 "2003-11-18T18:11:20Z")
No, TVAA, it is only the narrow-minded and limited minds who “lose”. Ever hear of “apophatic” theology? It is only tinyminds who insist that God must be bound by logic. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/7 "2003-11-18T18:14:16Z")
Argument from necessity is a “logical fallacy”, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/8 "2003-11-18T18:14:55Z")
I always thought the idea of a paradox was that it makes no sense. It’s kind of like asking if God’s breath smells red or something. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/9 "2003-11-18T18:27:21Z")
How about this: What does it mean for anything to “lift” something that’s “heavy?” It means to do work against a gravitational field. What is the most powerful gravitational field possible in this universe? A black hole. Could god accellerate an object so it could escape from a black hole? Physics says no, but if god is not bound by the rules of physics then sure he could. So no, God cannot create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/10 "2003-11-18T18:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Either God is beyond knowing, making any and all thought about the matter pointless and meaningless, or the properties it is asserted He has truly apply and there are necessary limits on His nature, thus contradicting many of the claims about Him. This is a false binary decision. There are other choices. For example, some parts of God’s nature may be knowable, other parts of his nature may be unknowable. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/11 "2003-11-18T18:31:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Please demonstrate that God MUST be bound by the rules of human logic. \*\* Because the IPU says so, silly. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/12 "2003-11-18T18:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pleonast \* > This is a false binary decision. There are other choices. For example, some parts of God’s nature may be knowable, other parts of his nature may be unknowable. is the part of his nature that tells us which parts are knowable knowable? if so, do you know them? ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/13 "2003-11-18T18:40:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Carnage \* > I always thought the idea of a paradox was that it makes no sense. It’s kind of like asking if God’s breath smells red or something. no, that’s the idea of nonsense. a paradox is usually a seemingly true statement that contradicts another seemingly true statement. they are generally used to point out a flaw in one of the statements, such as how russell’s paradox shows a flaw in set theory when it contains the axiom of choice. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/14 "2003-11-18T18:54:21Z")
> [@](#): > > is the part of his nature that tells us which parts are knowable knowable? > if so, do you know them? Interesting question, but I don’t know. Not that it matters for my point. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/15 "2003-11-18T19:33:44Z")
I’d be embarrassed to ask my minister such a question. [ul]☹ [sup] **Besides it would give him an opportunity to ask where I’ve been the past couple of years.** [/sup][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![theretsof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e8c25b/32.png) [@theretsof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theretsof)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/16 "2003-11-18T19:37:35Z")
[http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/) “The first, and best-known, ontological argument was proposed by St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th. century A.D. In his Proslogion, St. Anselm claims to derive the existence of God from the concept of a being than which no greater can be conceived. St. Anselm reasoned that, if such a being fails to exist, then a greater being — namely, a being than which no greater can be conceived, and which exists — can be conceived. But this would be absurd: nothing can be greater than a being than which no greater can be conceived. So a being than which no greater can be conceived — i.e., God — exists.” Fun stuff, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/17 "2003-11-18T22:48:16Z")
I’m still waiting for my minister to get back to me on the ~gry thing. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/18 "2003-11-19T01:26:28Z")
Seriously couldn’t a lot of these problems be mooted by abandoning the concepts of an infinitely powerful God. There is nothing in the concept of God that requires infinite power. The ancient Greeks, Norse, etc. were fine with their gods simply being immortal and very powerful. Even in the Bible there is no infinite quality to god, at least not one that is neccessary for the Bible story to be true. In the OT god is frequently shown as having limits on perception judgement, etc. IANA theist or theologian, so maybe I am missing something, but isn’t a God whose power and knowledge is not infinite but just very very very very…very very great all that is needed for Christianity. (Or any other monotheism.) Then all these paradoxes disappear. Seriously, lets leave infinity to mathematics. It causes nothing but confusion in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/19 "2003-11-19T02:01:19Z")
Simple answer: The question is asking if there is something which God can do which God cannot do. One of the heavier-hitters in the field of logic can give you the name of this. However, asking is there an X which isn’t an X is patently false. Subnote: If one defines omnipotence as being able to do everything possible, then the problem goes away. If one doesn’t (I.e.), requires that omnipotence requires the ability to perform impossible actions), one can iterate the paradox with asking about the ability to perform actions that are neither impossible nor possible. All this proves is that theology and set theory intersect badly. ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/20 "2003-11-19T03:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > Subnote: If one defines omnipotence as being able to do everything possible, then the problem goes away. I suspect this will raise objections for nit-pickers. Perhaps a tighter construction would be that omnipotence is the ability to do all things _not-illogical_. Tinker [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918.md?page=2)