# Ever asked your minister the "rock question"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918 "2003-11-18T16:22:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/21 "2003-11-19T03:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > **One of the heavier-hitters in the field of logic can give you the name of this. However, asking is there an X which isn’t an X is patently false.** It doesn’t require a heavy-hitter, it’s a paradoxical question. It’s semantically meaningless, even if it’s syntactically sensible. ---
**Author:** ![Julien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@Julien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julien)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/22 "2003-11-19T04:58:17Z")
God must be bound by the rules of logic in order to create a logically functioning Universe. In times of old, that was debatable. Noone understood gravity or how it kept the entirety of the stars together in place, or that it all was mathematical. So, in order for god to create a mathematically functioning Universe, he would have to be familiar with mathematics, therefore governed by the rules therewithupon. Quod erat demonstratum. ---
**Author:** ![Julien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@Julien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julien)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/23 "2003-11-19T04:59:53Z")
kinda… makes me wonder if Mathematics isn’t just some kind of Universal Construct Programming Language. ---
**Author:** ![Julien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@Julien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julien)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/24 "2003-11-19T05:03:28Z")
So yes. God can pick up that rock. All he’d need is a gameshark. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/25 "2003-11-19T06:21:41Z")
It’s a stupid question. I’ve [pointed that out elsewhere](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183850#post3424624). Note that the problems arise from the question are from the inane philosophical arguments like **theretsof** mentions. I’ll note that reading the greek NT (not that I’m an expert) doesn’t seem to lead to the same problems. For instance, in Revelation 1:8 for instance, the Lord says: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” The word “almighty” is from the greek ‘pantokrator’ which has a connotation of “all-ruling” or “one who holds together and regulates all things.” Rev 19:6 renders the same greek word as “omnipotent”. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/26 "2003-11-19T12:52:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*No, TVAA, it is only the narrow-minded and limited minds who “lose”. Ever hear of “apophatic” theology? It is only tinyminds who insist that God must be bound by logic. \*\* No: IF statements about God are to be meaningful, THEN God is bound by logic. Logic is what allows statements to be interpreted, by making it possible for us to generate conclusions from given statements. Do not be deceived; this is not a debate. It is not necessary for me to defeat you when you have already defeated yourself. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/27 "2003-11-19T12:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pleonast \* > \*\*This is a false binary decision. There are other choices. For example, some parts of God’s nature may be knowable, other parts of his nature may be unknowable. \*\* What do you mean, “knowable”? There’s a difference between “knowable by human beings at this point in space-time” and “able to be known”. Furthermore, your assertion is generally incorrect: if part of God’s nature is probabilistic and part is not, God’s nature as a whole is probabilistic. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/28 "2003-11-19T13:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jayjay \* > \*\*You [might](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22571) [want](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165520) to [use](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183850) the [search feature](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?) to see if something that may have been discussed several times before has been discussed several times before… \*\* You missed out my favourite question on this topic: [Could God make a burrito so big even he could not eat it?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128040&highlight=Burrito) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/29 "2003-11-19T13:45:40Z")
> [@](#): > > God must be bound by the rules of logic in order to create a logically functioning Universe. In times of old, that was debatable. Noone understood gravity or how it kept the entirety of the stars together in place, or that it all was mathematical. So, in order for god to create a mathematically functioning Universe, he would have to be familiar with mathematics, therefore governed by the rules therewithupon. Quod erat demonstratum. God is not bound by the rules of logic because God created logic as we understand it. Mathematical principles and physical interactions are all His way of describing creation to us. In any event, the question is irrelevant because God does not lift rocks or eat burritos. > [@](#): > > There is nothing in the concept of God that requires infinite power. The ancient Greeks, Norse, etc. were fine with their gods simply being immortal and very powerful. Even in the Bible there is no infinite quality to god, at least not one that is neccessary for the Bible story to be true. In the OT god is frequently shown as having limits on perception judgement, etc. > > IANA theist or theologian, so maybe I am missing something, but isn’t a God whose power and knowledge is not infinite but just very very very very…very very great all that is needed for Christianity. (Or any other monotheism.) Then all these paradoxes disappear. It would, but we do not believe that it is true. God is omnipotent in the sense that nothing greater than him can exist. Even God cannot create something Greater than himself because, well, because it would be himself. There is no such thing as “greater than God”. It seems strange to say t only because the term “God” hides the idea that the definition of “God” is the greatest thing that can be. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/30 "2003-11-19T13:56:39Z")
Again: if logic doesn’t apply to God, quit applying it to Him. If you continue to draw conclusions about God through the use of logic while denying that logic applies, we’ll have no choice but to regard you as an imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/31 "2003-11-19T16:03:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*…It seems strange to say t only because the term “God” hides the idea that the definition of “God” is the greatest thing that can be. \*\* I’m sorry, but no, he just [thinks](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222940) he is. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/32 "2003-11-19T16:57:11Z")
God as God in all Divinity can lift any rock that He can create. God as Incarnate as… oh, let’s say Jesus (ok, or Krishna, just to be fair) can subject Himself to human limitations & therefore not be able to lift that rock. Duh! _L_ ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/33 "2003-11-19T17:05:06Z")
But can He in all Divinity create a rock that He in all Divinity can’t lift? That’s precisely the point: true omnipotence is logically self-contradictory. It’s rather like claiming to tolerate everything and then refusing to tolerate intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![owlofcreamcheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@owlofcreamcheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlofcreamcheese)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/34 "2003-11-20T01:11:48Z")
can god goose seven viginia? can god blip blarp bloop? can god CD african juicecup? if god is all powerful the way people are useing the word, then the answer to all the questions would have to be yes. ---
**Author:** ![Royal\_Nonesuch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8491ac/32.png) [@Royal\_Nonesuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Royal_Nonesuch)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/35 "2003-11-20T02:35:47Z")
If God can do anything, can God commit suicide? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/36 "2003-11-20T12:43:19Z")
If the answers to the questions “Can God do X?” and “Can God not do X?” are always ‘yes’, then God is logically impossible, and as such does not exist in our universe. In fact, He wouldn’t then exist in _any_ logically possible universe. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/37 "2003-11-20T12:54:32Z")
To sum up, **TVAA** is right, **Dogface** is wrong, **smiling bandit** should stop introducing his own personal theology into logical debates as if it were some kind of fact, and God cannot limit his own abilities, since hindering an omnipotent is a logical impossibility. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/38 "2003-11-20T22:33:55Z")
TVAA said > [@](#): > > Either God is beyond knowing, making any and all thought about the matter pointless and meaningless, or the properties it is asserted He has truly apply and there are necessary limits on His nature, thus contradicting many of the claims about Him. Then Pleonast said, > [@](#): > > For example, some parts of God’s nature may be knowable, other parts of his nature may be unknowable. And TVAA responded, > [@](#): > > What do you mean, “knowable”? My point is that some properties of God could be known while others are inherently unknowable. This is an option not considered by your either/or statement. We may be able to make meaningful statements about some properties of God, while finding it intrinsically impossible to discern other properties. I am not saying that this is so, only that it is a possibility. TVAA also said > [@](#): > > IF statements about God are to be meaningful, THEN God is bound by logic. This is not necessarily true. The logically equivalent contrapositive is “If God is not bound by logic, then no statements about God are meaningful”. A counterexample to this is the statement “God is not bound by logic”. This is a meaningful statement, and thus the quote is not true. And, > [@](#): > > True omnipotence is logically self-contradictory. I agree with this. I would therefore say “If God is omnipotent then God is not bound by logic”. Also, > [@](#): > > If the answers to the questions “Can God do X?” and “Can God not do X?” are always ‘yes’, then God is logically impossible, I agree. > [@](#): > > In fact, He wouldn’t then exist in any logically possible universe. Yes. > [@](#): > > and as such does not exist in our universe. Can you prove that our universe is logically consistent (every-where and -when)? Note: I am not making any statements about God, only about the logic involved. ---
**Author:** ![InquisitiveIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3ec8ea/32.png) [@InquisitiveIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InquisitiveIdiot)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2003, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/39 "2003-11-20T22:44:47Z")
If God is omnipotent, a rock too heavy for God to lift cannot exist. Since it cannot exist, it is not limiting God’s powers to say he cannot, within the bounds of logic, create that which is a logical impossiblity. So the answer is “Yes… but what’s your point?” ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918/40 "2003-11-21T01:50:43Z")
I don’t generally like to participate in these discussions, but what the hell. **TVAA** , you are assuming that God is an inhabitant of this universe when you say that > [@](#): > > He wouldn’t then exist in _any_ logically possible universe. But, God, as creator of the universe (we assume for this discussion), exists outside of that universe. Therefore, the _universal_ principle of non-contradiction would not exist for God. God, not being bound by the laws of the universe, can be black and white, up and down, ahead and behind, alpha and omega, and so forth, all at the same time. And if you really want to get esoteric, then by negative theology in Catholicism, if you were to ask, “Does God exist?” the answer would be no, since strictly speaking, existence is a property of the universe and its inhabitants, which God is not a part of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-asked-your-minister-the-rock-question/213918.md?page=3)