# Ever get the urge to deface or destroy religious propoganda in a public place? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055 "2009-03-11T10:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/201 "2009-03-15T03:19:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It has been my impression that **Diogenes** is arguing mostly hypothetically; didn’t he say upthread that he wouldn’t bother tossing a Bible in a trash can himself, but doesn’t think doing so is illegal? Well, if it’s hypothetical, fine. As far as illegal-of course it’s not. As others have said, the Gideons want people to take them. I just think it’s immature. (Not to mention a waste of resources-like someone said, all that ends up in a landfill-waste of trees, anyone? You’re better off donating it to a library) (Speaking of creepy Jesus pictures, my grandparents had this [really spooky Jesus picture](http://image38.webshots.com/38/0/83/67/2499083670094016736wKGzRn_ph.jpg) that looked as if his eyes were open or closed. Well, it was up in the attic with some junk-it probably belonged to one of their relatives, but it was still really freaky.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/202 "2009-03-15T04:14:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (Speaking of creepy Jesus pictures, my grandparents had this [really spooky Jesus picture](http://image38.webshots.com/38/0/83/67/2499083670094016736wKGzRn_ph.jpg) that looked as if his eyes were open or closed. Well, it was up in the attic with some junk-it probably belonged to one of their relatives, but it was still really freaky.) I get Forbidden when I click on your link ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/203 "2009-03-15T05:22:06Z")
Sorry, I got it from a google image search. Try copy and paste. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/204 "2009-03-15T05:27:41Z")
Copy and paste works. I can imagine your discovery of it “Hello, Guin, I died to save you-for later. I’m going to eat your eyes now.” ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/205 "2009-03-15T07:42:28Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Copy and paste works. > > I can imagine your discovery of it > > “Hello, Guin, I died to save you-for later. I’m going to eat your eyes now.” I’ve seen it before so I wasn’t as creeped out, but yeah, that is one creepy JC. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/206 "2009-03-16T01:32:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you fimnd literature abandoned in your private, rented space which is deeply offensive to you, it is neither pointless nor childish to throw it away. To some people finding a Bible is like finding porn or like finding _Mein Kampf_. > > What do you think of the fundies who trash Books of Mormon? Staying in a hotel is not exactly the same is renting an apartment. For example, the hotel management has the right to enter your room without your permission for various reasons. So you have only a limited right to privacy in a hotel room. Cite: [http://public.findlaw.com/consumer/hotels-faq.html#198D1333-7714-4F9B-BEB25E0F70019F7D](http://public.findlaw.com/consumer/hotels-faq.html#198D1333-7714-4F9B-BEB25E0F70019F7D) So I would hesitate to make any arguments that rely on too strict an analogy between a hotel room and a private residence. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/207 "2009-03-16T01:35:50Z")
It’s exactly the same as it pertains to this question. The hotel’s rights are of no relevance here. The only relevant parties are the one renting the space and the one who abandoned property in it. The hotel itself has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/208 "2009-03-18T20:00:58Z")
Just talked to Gideons (Did anybody think of calling them?): \*_Diogenes_, you are completely wrong with your assumptions, meaning that your argument is specious, meaning that you’re acting like a criminal, not some sort of radical freethinker. The Bibles are the property of the Hotel. Period. While the woman acknowledged that the books will occasionally “walk off”, and that therefore Gideons will not prosecute people caught with a Gideon Bible, she was very explicit in that Gideons only allowed this if the intent of the hotel guest was to read and keep the Bible. Therefore, according to the Gideons, the Bibles belong to the hotel. If the intent of the guest is to read it after they leave, Gideons _will not prosecute_. If the intent of the guest is to destroy/trash it, Gideons reserves the right to prosecute. You have been warned. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/209 "2009-03-18T20:15:17Z")
If the Bibles belong to the hotel, then it is up to the hotel, and not the Gideons, to decide whether to press charges against anyone removing them (it is up to the DA to decide whether to actually prosecute). edited to add: Dude! My 420th post! Party! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/210 "2009-03-18T20:17:19Z")
Just relaying what the Gideons told me, **Thing Fish**. If you care to debate the Gideons on legal theory and its application in regards to their Bibles, feel free to call 615-564-5000. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/211 "2009-03-18T20:21:37Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Therefore, according to the Gideons, the Bibles belong to the hotel. If the intent of the guest is to read it after they leave, Gideons _will not prosecute_. If the intent of the guest is to destroy/trash it, Gideons reserves the right to prosecute. If the Bibles belong to the hotels in which they are left, it is not the Gideons’ decision to prosecute anyone who takes them, as they have surrendered their ownership stake in the “stolen” items. Unless, of course, they’re using the same logic as the Lord of Hosts did when he ordered Jesus’ sacrifice for the sins of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/212 "2009-03-18T20:22:35Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > If the Bibles belong to the hotel, then it is up to the hotel, and not the Gideons, to decide whether to press charges against anyone removing them (it is up to the DA to decide whether to actually prosecute). In strict legality, this depends on whether the hotel owns the thing outright or is some sort of licencee, with the Gideon society retaining ultimate ownership; also on whether the “charges” are for criminal theft, or simply a civil lawsuit - maybe for an injunction rather than damages. In reality, none of thsi matters because it will never happen - the value of the bibles is too low to make any acts of the sort worthwhile. It may be different if one made an organized effort of bible-destruction, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/213 "2009-03-18T20:24:19Z")
The Bibles are not hotel property, and what you claim the lady told you doesn’t even make sense. If the Bibles are hotel property, then why would the Gideons be in any position to “prosecute” or “allow” anything? It sounds like you got a lady who wasn’t fully informed. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/214 "2009-03-18T20:34:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In reality, none of thsi matters because it will never happen - the value of the bibles is too low to make any acts of the sort worthwhile. It may be different if one made an organized effort of bible-destruction, though. In theory I oppose dust-binning Bibles as silly and pointless. In practice, organzing an effort to do so on a mass scale gives me the giggles. It makes me want to organize a really big Dopefest to do it, and announce what we’ve done afterwards, just to see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/215 "2009-03-18T20:38:44Z")
I just called the number that **JohnT** posted. I asked who is the legal owner of the Bibles that are placed in hotel rooms. I was transferred to another guy and asked the same question. He told me that the Bibles are _donations_ from the Gideons for the benefit of the guests. Once the Gideons leave them, they are no longer Gideon property. I asked him who the legal owner was, and he said he didn’t know. I asked if guests were free to take them and he said yes. So if we’re free to take them, we’re free to trash them after we take them. I didn’t specifically ask if it was ok to trash them. The people I talked to seemed very nice and I didn’t want to sound obnoxious. It logically follows, though, that it they’re intended as donations to the guests, that the guests can do what they want with them. You can’t tell theguests what to do with the Bibles once they choose to take possession of them. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/216 "2009-03-19T13:44:59Z")
So we’re back to “Probably legal, also probably kinda a dick move in the eyes of many people and a worthwhile fight against ignorance in the eyes of many others.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/217 "2009-03-19T14:48:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I just called the number that **JohnT** posted. I asked who is the legal owner of the Bibles that are placed in hotel rooms. I was transferred to another guy and asked the same question. He told me that the Bibles are _donations_ from the Gideons for the benefit of the guests. Once the Gideons leave them, they are no longer Gideon property. I asked him who the legal owner was, and he said he didn’t know. I asked if guests were free to take them and he said yes. > > So if we’re free to take them, we’re free to trash them after we take them. > I didn’t specifically ask if it was ok to trash them. The people I talked to seemed very nice and I didn’t want to sound obnoxious. It logically follows, though, that it they’re intended as donations to the guests, that the guests can do what they want with them. You can’t tell theguests what to do with the Bibles once they choose to take possession of them. Does that necessarily follow? There are lots of situations in which one person “gives something away”, but retains rights over what the taker does with the property - for example, freeware: > **[Freeware](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeware)** > > Freeware is software, often proprietary, that is distributed at no monetary cost to the end user. There is no agreed-upon set of rights, license, or EULA that defines freeware unambiguously; every publisher defines its own rules for the freeware it offers. For instance, modification, redistribution by third parties, and reverse engineering are permitted by some publishers but prohibited by others. Unlike with free and open-source software, which are also often distributed free of charge, The term... > [@](#): > > The software license may impose restrictions on the type of use including personal use, individual use, non-profit use, non-commercial use, academic use, commercial use or any combination of these. For instance, the license may be “free for personal, non-commercial use”. Seems to me that if it is legally possible to “give away” software while imposing restrictions on use (“free for non-profit use”), you can “give away” a bible for the purposes intended by the donor, but not for pointless destruction. Now, not saying that the Gideons actually have any sort of express contract covering the matter - though, as with freeware, it would be easy enough to simply print one up and include it with the Bible (i.e. “by taking this Bible you agree to the following …”), like a so-called “clickwrap” agreement. It would be a bit funny and a bit sad if such legaleze was actually required, IMHO. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/218 "2009-03-19T15:18:37Z")
He told me for sure that the Gideons have no more ownership over the Bibles after the donations are made. There is no contract, implicit or explicit, with the guests. The word “donation” was his. They are donations to the guests. I don’t know why I got such a different answer than **JohnT** did, but that was the answer I got, and that was the answer I’ve got from other Gideons and hotel workers before. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/219 "2009-03-19T15:58:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He told me for sure that the Gideons have no more ownership over the Bibles after the donations are made. There is no contract, implicit or explicit, with the guests. The word “donation” was his. They are donations to the guests. > > I don’t know why I got such a different answer than **JohnT** did, but that was the answer I got, and that was the answer I’ve got from other Gideons and hotel workers before. He maybe did not know the legal ins and outs; I suspect if you had asked “is it okay to take them and just throw them out?” he may have said “no, that’s not what they are for”. Which sounds exactly like what would, in lawyers’ terms, be an implied licence for use. I _suspect_ that if pressed and informed by legal opinion they would take the position that there is an implied license that the goods are free _for the purpose intended_. Point is that such a position isn’t legally impossible and indeed makes a certain amount of common sense (though whether an implied license would actually hold up as legally meaningful in court is of course another question). Certainly you could do it with an _express_ license if you really wanted to, though my guess is that they don’t bother because it would look silly. Another example of a “free” product license, specifically intended for printed texts: > **[Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation LicenseHow to use this License for your documents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_the_GNU_Free_Documentation_License)** > > Version 1.3, 3 November 2008 > Copyright (C) 2000, 2001, 2002, 2007, 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ > Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. > The purpose of this License is to make a manual, textbook, or other functional and useful document "free" in the sense of freedom: to assure everyone the effective freedom to copy and redistribute it, with or without modifying it, either commercially or no... Point is, the original objection - that the stuff is a “free donation” and thus the end user is by definition entitled to do whatever he or she wants with it - is too simplistic. There are whole realms of “property” where this is not presumptively true, where stuff that is, if you like, left lying around for anyone to use is subject to lots of quite complex restrictions on the end user. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/220 "2009-03-19T16:14:57Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’ve been known to throw away bibles I’ve found in hotel rooms. Riffle the pages before you do. There are people who will stick money in hotel bibles to “reward” you for reading them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=12)