# Ever get the urge to deface or destroy religious propoganda in a public place? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055 "2009-03-11T10:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/41 "2009-03-11T17:13:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not disrupting the speech, just rejecting it. People can write whatever they want and leave it at bus stops, that doesn’t mean they have some kind of right for their litter to be preserved as holy writ for all time. Once they abandon it in a public place, they lose all ownership over it. Do you really think there’s a civil rights issue here? > > When I was playing in bands, I would sometimes get involved in flyer wars with other bands (they rip down your shit and put up their own. You respond in kind. Rinse and repeat). Should I have called the police to report my flyers being ripped down or having the word “SUCKS” written under the band name? Were my rights being violated? Was I a victim? Well why don’t you define when an expressed thought has value? I would err on the side of all speech is protected, but you clearly don’t. I also wouldn’t really support the someone did it to me, so I will do it to someone else approach to inhibiting free speech, but that’s just me. Please help us order our society based on the what seems reasonable to garage bandmembers yardstick. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/42 "2009-03-11T17:33:01Z")
Is this equivalent to pulling up a political candidate’s sign stuck in a public place? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/43 "2009-03-11T17:35:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Words like “intolerance” and “freedom” are kind of over the top here. All we’re talking about is defacing litter, not someone else’s property Well, a Bible Study flier on a college bulletin board isn’t litter. Even if it wasn’t approved by the college, that’s their problem not that of Poster-Tearer, Boy Vigilante. No, I’ve never seen the need to deface and tear down things I disagree with. I view that as being petty and childish. “Ha ha! I totally drew on a sign when no one was around! I’m so badass!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/44 "2009-03-11T17:38:09Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Well why don’t you define when an expressed thought has value? I would err on the side of all speech is protected, but you clearly don’t. I also wouldn’t really support the someone did it to me, so I will do it to someone else approach to inhibiting free speech, but that’s just me. Please help us order our society based on the what seems reasonable to garage bandmembers yardstick. No speech is being infringed. That’s the point. It’s not about anything having any more or less “value.” The person who puts out a pamphlet has already spoken. Drawing a cock on Jesus is just answering speech with speech. Just because you have the right to speak doesn’t mean anyone else has to listen. Do you really think this is a civil rights issue? Seriously? You think all religious and political pamphlets should be legally protected from defacement? What should be the penalty? The First Amendment only protects free speech from the government anyway, not from other citizens. ---
**Author:** ![aaslatten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@aaslatten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaslatten)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/45 "2009-03-11T17:38:24Z")
I admit to having the urge, especially when it’s a religious poster to promote some kind of anti-intellectual seminar (“Learn the Truth about Evolution!”), but I wouldn’t act on it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/46 "2009-03-11T17:47:45Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Well, a Bible Study flier on a college bulletin board isn’t litter. I beg to differ. > [@](#): > > Even if it wasn’t approved by the college, that’s their problem not that of Poster-Tearer, Boy Vigilante. It’s public garbage. Nobody owns it. The person who put it up has no prorietary rights over it. They have abandoned it in a public place. It is anybody’s property to do with as they see fit. > [@](#): > > No, I’ve never seen the need to deface and tear down things I disagree with. I view that as being petty and childish. “Ha ha! I totally drew on a sign when no one was around! I’m so badass!” :rolleyes: I don’t do it either, but I don’t wring my hands about “free speech” if somebody else does it. Whatever paper trash a person abandons in public no longer belongs to that person. Their rights aren’t being violated, and defacing their “message” is no more offensive than putting it up there in the first place. It’s just answering speech with speech. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/47 "2009-03-11T17:49:53Z")
A better thing to do would be to put up a flier or sticker next to it with positive atheist message and link to a good freethinker website. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/48 "2009-03-11T17:56:44Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > [Dilbert]When did ignorance become a point of view?[/Dilbert] I would not contend that ignorance is equivalent to a point of view, nor have I. > [@](#): > > If it’s not your property, don’t throw it in the trash. Just leave the drawer shut where the offending article won’t sully your vision. May I ask if you would feel the same if you knew that your hotel room contained propaganda from, say, the Ku Klux Klan, or from any group promoting hatred? I know this doesn’t happen, so it is necessarily a hypothetical question, but would you really just be content for it to be out of the way, or would you feel entitled to throw in the trash? This is not intended as a snarky question or some sort of trap; I am genuinely interested in your views on this. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/49 "2009-03-11T18:02:46Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > May I ask if you would feel the same if you knew that your hotel room contained propaganda from, say, the Ku Klux Klan, or from any group promoting hatred? I know this doesn’t happen, so it is necessarily a hypothetical question, but would you really just be content for it to be out of the way, or would you feel entitled to throw in the trash? This is not intended as a snarky question or some sort of trap; I am genuinely interested in your views on this. For me, yes. If they push a copy on me, I would throw out my copy, but I wouldn’t think I had the right to throw out or deface the other copies they had. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/50 "2009-03-11T18:05:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I beg to differ. “Free speech” and all that aside ('cause that’s not my angle), I’m just noting that things posted to college bulletin boards are typically approved by the college for display between a set of dates. They’re no more “litter” than the signs saying where the bathroom is are litter. > [@ianzin](#): > > May I ask if you would feel the same if you knew that your hotel room contained propaganda from, say, the Ku Klux Klan, or from any group promoting hatred? Probably read part of it out of curiousity, put it back and make a point of finding out if the hotel knows/condones it being there. And picking another hotel next time if they do. I suppose if they said they know nothing about it and it’s just abandoned trash, I’d toss it. But that’s not the case with the Bibles which are there with the hotel’s knowledge and consent. ---
**Author:** ![NicorGasMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@NicorGasMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicorGasMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/51 "2009-03-11T18:07:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I beg to differ. > > It’s public garbage. Nobody owns it. The person who put it up has no prorietary rights over it. They have abandoned it in a public place. It is anybody’s property to do with as they see fit. > > I don’t do it either, but I don’t wring my hands about “free speech” if somebody else does it. Whatever paper trash a person abandons in public no longer belongs to that person. Their rights aren’t being violated, and defacing their “message” is no more offensive than putting it up there in the first place. It’s just answering speech with speech. So you would have no problem if one of the mods or administrators deleted some of your posts if they didnt agree with what you said? You don’t own or have proprietary rights over your posts. You just abandoned them on this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/52 "2009-03-11T18:13:21Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > May I ask if you would feel the same if you knew that your hotel room contained propaganda from, say, the Ku Klux Klan, or from any group promoting hatred? I know this doesn’t happen, so it is necessarily a hypothetical question, but would you really just be content for it to be out of the way, or would you feel entitled to throw in the trash? I would feel justified in throwing it away if the bulletin board belonged to me, or if I had been put in charge of maintaining it. I think defacing other people’s posters is childish vandalism just like spraying graffiti, and no one should do it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/53 "2009-03-11T18:15:22Z")
One more time. The Bibles are gifts for the guests. They are not hotel property. They are the property of the guests to do with as they see fit. Why is it rude for **ianzin** to throw his own Bible in the garbage? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/54 "2009-03-11T18:18:47Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > I would not contend that ignorance is equivalent to a point of view, nor have I. May I ask if you would feel the same if you knew that your hotel room contained propaganda from, say, the Ku Klux Klan, or from any group promoting hatred? I know this doesn’t happen, so it is necessarily a hypothetical question, but would you really just be content for it to be out of the way, or would you feel entitled to throw in the trash? This is not intended as a snarky question or some sort of trap; I am genuinely interested in your views on this. Most likely, I’d simply not stay there again. If I had time, I’d make it public that such was available, and possibly leave a note for the next person expressing my own point of view, but seriously? It’s the hotel’s choice what speech they wish to express or allow to be expressed in the room decor and amenities. The idea of throwing out a Gideon Bible is as frankly abhorrent to me as stealing a towel or two: sure, it’s portable property that’s in the hotel room, but it’s not YOUR portable property, it’s part of the rental (this POV potentially will change pending a cite on the Gideon Bibles being intended as “gift to the renter” and not fixtures of the room) and not really yours to dispose of. For me it’s a “free speech cuts both ways” issue–I find it abhorrent to deal with unwanted/unwelcome but legal speech by destroying it, especially when the opportunity exists to speak one’s own POV in response instead. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > [Quote=Jophiel] > > Well, a Bible Study flier on a college bulletin board isn’t litter. I beg to differ. > [@](#): > > Even if it wasn’t approved by the college, that’s their problem not that of Poster-Tearer, Boy Vigilante. It’s public garbage. Nobody owns it. The person who put it up has no prorietary rights over it. They have abandoned it in a public place. It is anybody’s property to do with as they see fit. [/quote] At my college, at least when I was there, you could and would face disciplinary actions (for vandalism) for removing a legal flyer from a designated bulletin board–the rules set up specifically in response to organizations with personal beefs destroying each other’s flyers. (as was typical, Campus Crusade for Christ vs. Gaming Club was a big driver of this, so the story went) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/55 "2009-03-11T18:19:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > One more time. The Bibles are gifts for the guests. They are not hotel property. They are the property of the guests to do with as they see fit. Why is it rude for **ianzin** to throw his own Bible in the garbage? I’m honestly interested in a cite for this–last time I picked one up (over a decade ago) the wording on the cover plate implied it was being provided to the room for the convenience of the guests, and not to the guests themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/56 "2009-03-11T18:23:41Z")
> [@NicorGasMan](#): > > So you would have no problem if one of the mods or administrators deleted some of your posts if they didnt agree with what you said? You don’t own or have proprietary rights over your posts. You just abandoned them on this message board. No, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I might stop posting here, but I wouldn’t think I was being victimized. The owners can permit or delete whatever they want. I’ve been a moderator on a popular atheist message board for several years now. We edit and delete posts all the time (not for specific opinions, but for personal attacks outside of the designated flame forum). That’s what the owners want, so that’s what we do. Most message boards control for content, even the SDMB. You can’t post porn here, can you? ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/57 "2009-03-11T18:34:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > One more time. The Bibles are gifts for the guests. They are not hotel property. They are the property of the guests to do with as they see fit. Why is it rude for **ianzin** to throw his own Bible in the garbage? Because that Bible was not placed there by Gideons (with hotel permission) for you to throw it away, but for you-- or someone else-- to read it. It’s not your decision to choose what others believe, just as it is not a believer’s place to choose what _you_ believe (or don’t believe). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/58 "2009-03-11T18:40:57Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m honestly interested in a cite for this–last time I picked one up (over a decade ago) the wording on the cover plate implied it was being provided to the room for the convenience of the guests, and not to the guests themselves. The Gideons want people to take them. My personal knowledge of this comes from when my wife worked a graveyard shift at a hotel desk when she was in college. They told her that they were intended to be gifts for anyone who might want or need one and that they were happy when people took them. They came back regularly to drop off replacement Bibles. It’s polite if you take one or trash on to let the deak know so they can put a new one in the drawer for the next guest. I guarantee you, the hotel doesn’t give the slightest fuck what you do with them short of leaving some kind of nasty surprise for th next guest (some people write or draw obscenities in the Bibles, or stuff pornography into them or other material intended to be inflammatory and put them back in the drawer). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/59 "2009-03-11T18:45:48Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > Because that Bible was not placed there by Gideons (with hotel permission) for you to throw it away, but for you-- or someone else-- to read it. It’s placed there as a _gift_ for people to _take_. If I want to throw my gift in the garbage, what business is that of anybody else? > [@](#): > > It’s not your decision to choose what others believe, just as it is not a believer’s place to choose what _you_ believe (or don’t believe). This appears to be a total non-sequitur. How does one person throwing his own Bible in the garbage equate to trying to control what someone else believes? If you think it robs the next person of a Bible, it doesn’t. Housekeeping just replaces them like towels. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/60 "2009-03-11T18:53:45Z")
The Gideon FAQ states: > [@](#): > > **Do people ever read the Bibles in their hotel rooms?** > > Yes! Each Bible placed in a hotel room has the potential to reach up to 2,300 people in its estimated six-year life span. Research from the hotel industry tells us that approximately 25% of travelers read the Bibles in their hotel rooms. A “six year life span” sounds as though the Bibles are intended to remain in the room. I doubt they’d begrudge someone taking one who actually _wanted_ it, but they’re not included in with the tiny shampoo bottles and scented soaps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=4)