# Ever get the urge to deface or destroy religious propoganda in a public place? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055 "2009-03-11T10:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/61 "2009-03-11T19:02:05Z")
No, that doesn’t mean that’s what they are “intended” for, it only says that most people don’t take them. They are _intended_ as gifts and they _want_ people to take them. Just ask anyone at Gideons International. I did (though they don’t appear to answer this question on their website). They’re not so much akin to the soap as they are akin to the pizza menus and other spam that the hotel lets people put in the rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/62 "2009-03-11T19:13:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you think it robs the next person of a Bible, it doesn’t. Housekeeping just replaces them like towels. But then why would you do it? It seems kind of pointless. You’re not keeping anyone else from getting a Bible, and the only ones who are going to know that you threw it out are you and possibly the housekeeper. ---
**Author:** ![aaslatten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@aaslatten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaslatten)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/63 "2009-03-11T19:14:12Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > The Gideon FAQ states:A “six year life span” sounds as though the Bibles are intended to remain in the room. I doubt they’d begrudge someone taking one who actually _wanted_ it, but they’re not included in with the tiny shampoo bottles and scented soaps. By the way, I seem to recall Miss Manners saying it’s bad form to take the shampoos unless you’ve already opened them (if you care what she thinks). Sidenote: The only time I’ve taken a religious book from a hotel was in Hawaii, where they furnished the rooms with Buddhist meditation books in addition to the Bibles. I just had to have one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/64 "2009-03-11T19:18:48Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > But then why would you do it? It seems kind of pointless. You’re not keeping anyone else from getting a Bible, and the only ones who are going to know that you threw it out are you and possibly the housekeeper. I don’t do it. Ask somebody who does. Apparently **ianzin** does it because he finds the presence of the Bible offensive to him personally. why does he need any more reason than that? ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/65 "2009-03-11T19:27:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, that doesn’t mean that’s what they are “intended” for, it only says that most people don’t take them. They are _intended_ as gifts and they _want_ people to take them. Just ask anyone at Gideons International. I did (though they don’t appear to answer this question on their website) I don’t even know why I’m jumping in here, but I will. Sigh. The travails of the nondenominational agnostic. I’m just not getting the logic of this. Person A says “It’s not right to throw away the Gideon Bibles because it’s not your property, it’s the property of the hotel or the Gideons.” You say, “But the Gideons intend people to take them away.” So obviously you think the Gideons’ intent is of some value. But then you also say it’s OK to trash or otherwise destroy the Bibles, which I’m sure is not the Gideons’ intent. Why is the Gideons’ intent of importance in Scenario 1 (hotel guest takes the Bible away) but not in Scenario 2 (hotel guest trashes Bible)? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/66 "2009-03-11T19:38:51Z")
Actually, you’re right. The Gideons’ intent is of no consequence in the long run, but what matters is that they have abandoned the property to the guests. They HOPE you will take it home and get saved, but they have no _say_ over it, and no proprietary rights to the Bibles. Neither does the hotel. Just like the pizza joints hope you’ll order from their menus, but have no right to say you can’t draw dicks on them if you want. The Bibles, like the pizza menus, have been abandoned to the rooms. _Why_ they’ve been abandoned means nothing. What the guest does with them is up to the guest. It does not affect either the hotel or any subsequent guests if someone takes a Bible home or defaces it or throws it in the trash. They are replaced just like the pizza menus, and the hotels are out nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/67 "2009-03-11T19:41:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Actually, you’re right. The Gideons’ intent is of no consequence in the long run, but what matters is that they have abandoned the property to the guests. They HOPE you will take it home and get saved, but they have no _say_ over it, and no proprietary rights to the Bibles. Neither does the hotel. Just like the pizza joints hope you’ll order from their menus, but have no right to say you can’t draw dicks on them if you want. > > The Bibles, like the pizza menus, have been abandoned to the rooms. _Why_ they’ve been abandoned means nothing. What the guest does with them is up to the guest. It does not affect either the hotel or any subsequent guests if someone takes a Bible home or defaces it or throws it in the trash. They are replaced just like the pizza menus, and the hotels are out nothing. The Gideons didn’t leave it at your house, they left it at the hotel. You, as a guest, don’t have a right to throw away the remote, the ashtrays, or the bedspread. Why would you throw away something else in the room that belongs to the hotel that you are renting? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/68 "2009-03-11T19:48:10Z")
The Bibles _don’t belong to the hotels_. They are left in the rooms as gifts for the guests with the _permission_ of the hotels, but the hotels don’t own them. When you check into a hotel room, that Bible belongs to you, just like the pizza menus. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/69 "2009-03-11T19:51:25Z")
Ah… Matthew, Mark, Luke and Papa Johns. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/70 "2009-03-11T20:00:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Bibles _don’t belong to the hotels_. They are left in the rooms as gifts for the guests with the _permission_ of the hotels, but the hotels don’t own them. When you check into a hotel room, that Bible belongs to you, just like the pizza menus. Where is this information coming from? The Gideon’s website states “One trustee went so far as to suggest that The Gideons furnish a Bible for each bedroom of the hotels in the United States.” One in each bedroom of the hotels in the United States would seem to me that it would belong to the hotel, not each renter of the room. It would probably help me understand to see where you’re pulling your information from regarding ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/71 "2009-03-11T20:01:23Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > Ah… Matthew, Mark, Luke and Papa Johns. _In nomine Dominoes…_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/72 "2009-03-11T20:02:24Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > Where is this information coming from? > > The Gideon’s website states “One trustee went so far as to suggest that The Gideons furnish a Bible for each bedroom of the hotels in the United States.” > > One in each bedroom of the hotels in the United States would seem to me that it would belong to the hotel, not each renter of the room. > > It would probably help me understand to see where you’re pulling your information from regarding ownership. I got it from the Gideons. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/73 "2009-03-11T20:07:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I got it from the Gideons. Where on their website can I find it? I’m not finding where they say it belongs to each person who rents the room. My cite is from their website under the “our history” tab, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/74 "2009-03-11T20:09:12Z")
I’ve had the urge perhaps but I’ve never followed through with it. I always remember when I worked in Marriott hotels, which include a Book of Mormon along with the Gideon Bible in their hotel rooms. We used to find those books- not daily, but frequently- dropped in the toilet, torn to shreds, covered with “a bunch of lies!” and other much more ‘colorful’ terminology, etc… While I’m not Mormon and have some rather irreconcilable differences with their teachings, this treatment of the B.o.M. always disgusted me, so I wouldn’t do it to other teachings I had problems with. \*For anyone not familiar, the Marriott family is Mormon. While they contribute megabucks to the Mormon church I can state from personal experience it is not true that they require their employees to do so nor are Mormon employees given any special treatment, though I have read this. (To my knowledge the only extra ‘benefit’ that Mormon employees have is that they have the option of having their church tithe taken from their pre-tax paycheck.) ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/75 "2009-03-11T20:11:15Z")
I apologise to **Rigmarole** if it seems my original response has derailed his or her thread, or has led to it beng derailed, even if inadvertently. I hope that at least my first post can be seen as _tolerably_ relevant, but perhaps opinions about hotel bibles now require a separate thread. Maybe either **Rigmarole** or a Mod will have a view on this. Again, I apologise if apology is warranted. It’s not my place to speak for **Diogenes** or vice-versa, although I’m interested in his information (assuming it’s accurate) about whether a Gideon bible belongs to the hotel guest. My own point of view was not predicated on whether the bible is my property. My point of view is predicated on the fact that I consider the bible to be as I described it before, and I treat it the same way I would any other piece of deranged hate literature that I believe has no place in a caring, decent, compassionate and civilised society. I’m sorry if my views are too sentimental and saccharine for some tastes, but I actually believe in loving and helping one another as far as is practicable. This is a large part of how I live my life on a daily basis. I have nothing but abject contempt for literature that espouses hatred and divison. If I went into a hotel room and saw some white supremacist crap lying around, I’d bin that too, and ‘ownership’ wouldn’t even cross my mind. I would say that it actually _is_ garbage, so the trash can is the right place for it. In my view, the same goes for the bible. **Sleeps with butterflies** made a point about other items typically found in hotel rooms: > [@SWB](#): > > don’t have a right to throw away the remote, the ashtrays, or the bedspread. This is of course true. But these are not hate literature, they do not preach hatred and division, they do not foster hatred and division, they are not used as an excuse for hatred and division and abuse by countless people around the world, and they also serve a useful purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/76 "2009-03-11T20:18:11Z")
**ianzin** , do you go into CD stores and destroy the CDs which preach degradation of women? Do you go to libraries and destroy religious works? If not, why not? Your rental of the hotel room doesn’t mean you get to treat the property in the room as you see fit if it destroys that property. I’m sure you believe what you are doing is edgy and making a statement, but the statement you’re making is the same intolerance you claim to be against. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/77 "2009-03-11T20:56:02Z")
Gideon Bibles are not the property of the hotels. They are gifts to the guests from the Gideons. When I say I got my information from the Gideons, I mean I actually asked the Gideons who were dropping off replacement Bibles at the hotel where my wife worked during college. **Sampiro** worked for Marriott. I’m sure he can back me up on this. The Bibles are not given as gifts to the hotels, but to the guests. They are just like the pizza menus. Spam with permission. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/78 "2009-03-11T21:01:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > **Sampiro** worked for Marriott. I’m sure he can back me up on this. The Bibles are not given as gifts to the hotels, but to the guests. They are just like the pizza menus. Spam with permission. Yep. The Gideons ask permission to put them there. It’s not like the soap and shampoo, but more like “in room God brochures” that you can keep if you so desire but should leave undamaged for future guests as common courtesy if you don’t. Plus, in every hotel I’ve ever worked at and every one that I recall staying at even they’re usually kept in a drawer in the bedside table, not laying on the pillow with a wafer and itty bitty consecrated wine bottle and a “For Wake Up Call Press \*7/To Accept Jesus Christ as Your Personal Lord and Savior Press \*8/For Room Service Press \*9” card. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/79 "2009-03-11T21:11:16Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Do you ever get this urge and have you acted on it? I used too, but then I started first grade. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/80 "2009-03-11T21:12:34Z")
> [@Scarlett67](#): > > No, because I am not a jackass. It can’t be THAT simple. I mean, I AM a jackass, and I don’t do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=5)