# Ever get the urge to deface or destroy religious propoganda in a public place? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055 "2009-03-11T10:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MJinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@MJinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJinks)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/121 "2009-03-12T17:47:21Z")
If they leave a turd in the toilet, I’m still allowed to flush it. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/122 "2009-03-12T17:54:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There is no difference between leaving it in my house and leaving it in my rented hotel room. My space is my space. What you abandon in it belongs to me. Yah, because in a hotel room, Reason forbid you just leave it be in case whoever rents the room tomorrow might have a less bigoted view than yours. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/123 "2009-03-12T17:58:18Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > you only have to leave it alone. May I ask… in what sense are you using ‘have to’ here? Does it pertain to obligation, duty, contract, compulsion… or what? I want to understand what you meant by this. ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/124 "2009-03-12T18:02:07Z")
Has anyone ever put [stickers like these](http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/stickers-ss4.html#734) in Gideon bibles? Perhaps a better “solution” to the Gideon bible problem than just trashing them, considering that the bible is just going to be replaced anyway. And it might just make someone think. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/125 "2009-03-12T18:04:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yah, because in a hotel room, Reason forbid you just leave it be in case whoever rents the room tomorrow might have a less bigoted view than yours. First of all, the Bible will be replaced for the next guest, so that’s a non-starter. The next guest is deprived of nothing. Secondly, why does it make somebody a “bigot” to dispose of trash they did not ask to be abandoned in their room? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/126 "2009-03-12T18:07:35Z")
By the way, if you ever rent a room, and want a Bible and find there’s not one in the drawer, it’s a housekeeping oversight. Just call the desk and they’ll bring one to your room. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/127 "2009-03-12T18:12:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > First of all, the Bible will be replaced for the next guest, so that’s a non-starter. The next guest is deprived of nothing. By the same logic, you can steal the towels too. After all, they were abandoned in your hotel room. Likewise the glassware, sheets, and TV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/128 "2009-03-12T18:16:43Z")
No, the towels belong to the hotel. The Bibles do not. They are put in the rooms with the hotel’s permission (even assistance), but they are not hotel property. As I keep saying, they are more akin to the take out menus left on top of the TV set than to the towels and soaps. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/129 "2009-03-12T19:22:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, intentions _don’t_ matter. Once they abandon the property, their intentions in doing so become irrelevant. Then you are contradicting yourself. Why did you mention their “intention” at all? > [@](#): > > There really is no option when it comes to hotels, though is there? They all have Gideon Bibles. If I rent a space, it’s mine while I’m renting it. If you don’t want me throwing away your spam, don’t put it in my space. Boo hoo. Cry me a river. All you have do do is ignore the thing - I manage to do that difficult feat each and every time I stay in a hotel room. > [@](#): > > Is someone who throws away a take-out menu being a “childish jerk?” Who is being victimized by me throwing away my own unsolicited spam? If someone goes into a public space to deliberately destroy them, then yes. If they throw stuff out that is mailed to their house, then no. Pretty simple distinction. As I said before, try going into a restaurant and taking _all_ of their “free” menus and destroying them _where the proprieter can see you do it_. Obviously, throwing out a menu you have picked up is pretty de minimus. > [@](#): > > I’m still waiting for someone to identify any actual _victim_ of this alleged “jerkdom.” The persons providing the free stuff and the hotel servers whose time you have egregiously wasted in replacing it. Not getting why you don’t understand this. Suspecting willful blindness to the obvious. > [@](#): > > You. You seem to have some weird notion that people don’t have any right to dispose of unsolicited litter and spam left in their private rented spaces. No. If you are asserting I said that the stuff is “holy” please prove it. > [@](#): > > What exactly IS the difference? There is no difference between “treasuring something as holy and sacred” and “not pointlessly destroying it”, according to you? Aren’t you rather egregiously excluding what the vast majority of people in fact do - namely, ignore the thing if they have no interest in it? > [@](#): > > Wow. You really do think it’s jerkish to trash a pizza ad? I don’t even know how to respond to that. Maybe with some “argument”. Seems to me that your fallacy is supposing that pizza ads have _no value whatsoever_ (rather than merely a _very small value_). The reality is that no-one cares if you throw out a _single_ pizza ad, because its value is so small. Throw out hundreds or thousands of ads, and the jerkishness of _deliberately and pointlessly_ destroying them becomes clear. > [@](#): > > Were talking about what gets abandoned, unsolicited, in other people’s private spaces. If someone abandons a pile of pizza ads on your front porch, are you going to cherish and treasure them forever, or are you going to throw them away? Do you save all your junk mail? You keep making (in my opinion) lousy analogies because you want to insist that this is the same situation as someone _mailing stuff to your house_ - but it isn’t. No-one is asking you to “treasure [bibles] forever”, but merely to refrain from pointlessly destroying them. > [@](#): > > You need to identify a victim of this alleged jerkdom. Done repeatedly. > [@](#): > > This is a bullshit analogy. People who spam hotel rooms have done me no service and are entitled to no expectation as to what will happen to their spam. This isn’t intended as a direct “analogy” to the situation under discussion, but merely to point out (as it does not appear obvious to you) that there are some acts that are not “illegal” or violative of any “rights” but which are nevertheless considered bad behaviour. > [@](#): > > The only difference is the method of delivery. It’s still unsolicted advertising delivered to someone else’s private space. No, a hotel room is not analogous to your house. One fact alone should suffice to demonstrate the absurdity of that position, and it is one you have been harping on repeatedly: that if someone mails something to your _house_, you must either throw it out or “treasure” it; if there is something lurking in a drawer of your hotel room, all you must do is NOTHING and you never have to see it again. > [@](#): > > It has everything to do with it. You’re trying to tell people what to do with their own legal property. _Sigh_. A person can, very easily, be a jerk “with [their] own legal property”. > [@](#): > > No there isn’t. There is no such responsibility whatsoever. Doesn’t exist. Yes there is. “Don’t be a jerk”. The fact it is not written into a law or contract does not mean it doesn’t exist. > [@](#): > > No, the anaolgy would be if they left it in my _room_. I would be free to eat or not eat whatever was left in my _room_, especially if I didn’t _ask_ for it. > > You just like to make up rules, don’t you? Nope, if it’s mine it’s mine. There are no conditions. Those who abandon crap in my room have no right to set conditions on what I can do with it. I’m not seeing what is so very significant about the distinction you are making. You rent a hotel’s services, including the common areas. In any event, your whole argument appears tio be predicated on some odd legalism. There are no “terms” or “conditions” here, no contract at all - just behaving like a jerk (or not), which is if you like a matter of equity and not law. > [@](#): > > The false anaologies just keep on coming with you. Once again, the only proper anaolgy would be to what people leave in your _room_. No one is talking about getting Bibles from a shelf in the lobby and throwing them in the trash. If a hotel agrees to let a rib joint leave a plate of complimentary ribs in each rooms, are you telling me that a vegetarian guest would have no right to throw them away? What in the world is the difference between something in a common area and something in your particular room? Seems to me that bibles left out in the lobby are as much “abandoned” for the use of guests as ones left in your particular room. And sure, a hotel typically leaves _tons_ of stuff “in your room” for your consumption - shower caps, toilet paper, little bottles of shower gel, towels, whatever. Are you of the opinion that because it is “in your room” for your use you can cheerfully flush it all down the toilet and order more, if some third party pays for it? Again, probably legally you can - never mind that you are inconveniencing the staff who has to keep replacing stuff you destroy for no reason - but you would be acting like a jerk, which is the point. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/130 "2009-03-12T19:36:49Z")
I have some questions for **ianzin** and others who would take or throw away the Bible. _Mein Kampf_ has already been mentioned. Would you take or throw away the Koran? The Communist Manifesto? Quotations from Chairman Mao? > [@davekhps](#): > > You want to be brave and contrarian? [Deface some posters in Beirut](http://michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/02/christopher-hit.php). I’d like to see some UK bus ads say “There probably is no Allah.” But I know I won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/131 "2009-03-12T19:38:46Z")
Let’s just simplify. A rented room is a private space, not a public one. A lobby is a public space (or at least a communal space). What’s abandoned in your private space is yours to do with as you please. It’s not analogous to going into the common space and taking something because you are not renting the exclusive use of the common space. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/132 "2009-03-12T19:40:56Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > I have some questions for **ianzin** and others who would take or throw away the Bible. _Mein Kampf_ has already been mentioned. Would you take or throw away the Koran? The Communist Manifesto? Quotations from Chairman Mao? Why do you think that would matter? > [@](#): > > I’d like to see some UK bus ads say “There probably is no Allah.” But I know I won’t. They already do say that. “God” and “Allah” are the same thing. Saying God does not exist is the same as saying Allah doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/133 "2009-03-12T19:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > And sure, a hotel typically leaves tons of stuff “in your room” for your consumption - shower caps, toilet paper, little bottles of shower gel, towels, whatever. Are you of the opinion that because it is “in your room” for your use you can cheerfully flush it all down the toilet and order more, if some third party pays for it? The hotel isn’t paying for the Bibles and the take-out menus in your room. They are only letting other interests pit advertizing spam in your room without your permission. What part of “the Bibles are not hotel property” do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/134 "2009-03-12T19:50:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > And perhaps you should remember that not even all atheists believe the Bible to be a work of evil. Considering the kinds of nastiness the Bible contains, that’s not a very defensible position. I’m sure that there are those who think that _Mein Kampf_ isn’t evil either. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/135 "2009-03-12T19:54:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The hotel isn’t paying for the Bibles and the take-out menus in your room. They are only letting other interests pit advertizing spam in your room without your permission. What part of “the Bibles are not hotel property” do you not understand? What part of “if some third party pays for it” did you fail to comprehend? So, the work you put the hotel staff through in re-stocking stuff you decide to toss out for no reason ‘doesn’t count’ because it isn’t hotel property they are restocking? If you toss garbage on the floor for no reason, it doesn’t inconvenience other guests because the hotel staff clean it up; if you toss out bilbles it doesn’t inconvenience other guests because (as you have repeatedly noted) the hotel will restock it. In both cases, it is “your room”, and does not involve “hotel property”, but you are putting the hotel to trouble for essentially nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/136 "2009-03-12T20:01:56Z")
All you’re left with is gasping about the work it takes for housekeeping to put another Bible in the drawer? That’s pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/137 "2009-03-12T20:03:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Let’s just simplify. A rented room is a private space, not a public one. A lobby is a public space (or at least a communal space). What’s abandoned in your private space is yours to do with as you please. It’s not analogous to going into the common space and taking something because you are not renting the exclusive use of the common space. I do not agree with this overly-elaborate “rule”. For one, I do not see any reason to treat free stuff left out for guests in the lobby any differently from free stuff left out for guests in the room, as if one was a totally different species of property than the other. Seems a simpler one is as follows: free stuff left out for guests in general ought to be used “in good faith” - that is, more or less for the intended purpose; with the common sense notion that a mere paper flier isn’t worth much of anything and can be made into the occasional paper airplane. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/138 "2009-03-12T20:06:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All you’re left with is gasping about the work it takes for housekeeping to put another Bible in the drawer? That’s pretty weak. Same as tossing litter on the floor. Takes only a second for house staff to clean up. Does that make it okay? I never claimed it was a _major_ bit of jerkishness. It is more akin to littering. Multiply it by thousands of guests and it _becomes_ major. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/139 "2009-03-12T20:39:31Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > I have some questions for **ianzin** and others who would take or throw away the Bible. _Mein Kampf_ has already been mentioned. Would you take or throw away the Koran? The Communist Manifesto? Quotations from Chairman Mao? I would not have any response to them because I don’t know anything much about their contents, or what these specific texts preach. Sure, I can make an educated guess about the contents, and I’ve heard references to these books all my life like anyone else, but in all honesty I know very little about them. I am very familiar with the bible and its contents, and the things that it preaches, which is why I consider it to be hate-filled propaganda and feel it belongs in the garbage. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/140 "2009-03-12T21:22:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Same as tossing litter on the floor. Takes only a second for house staff to clean up. Does that make it okay? > > I never claimed it was a _major_ bit of jerkishness. It is more akin to littering. Multiply it by thousands of guests and it _becomes_ major. That’s what bugs me about it. Throwing it away is giving the cleaning staff more work to do, and that doesn’t seem right just to take a little tiny stand that isn’t going to be known about or matter to anyone. I mean, it’s not like the cleaning lady doesn’t have enough work to do, and I’m sure she’s not doing that job because she finds it to be the most fun she’s ever had, so why make it harder when you don’t have to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=8)