# Ever get the urge to deface or destroy religious propoganda in a public place? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055 "2009-03-11T10:10:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/141 "2009-03-12T21:34:38Z")
How about if they were leaving copies of _Playboy_ or _Penthouse_? Some people feel those magazines are demeaning to women. If someone morally objects to such publications are they entitled to throw those away? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/142 "2009-03-12T21:45:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I do not agree with this overly-elaborate “rule”. For one, I do not see any reason to treat free stuff left out for guests in the lobby any differently from free stuff left out for guests in the room, as if one was a totally different species of property than the other. It’s not “elaborate,” it’s extremely simple. What’s left in the lobby is left for all guests. What’s left in my room is left for only ME. > [@](#): > > Same as tossing litter on the floor. Takes only a second for house staff to clean up. Does that make it okay? > > I never claimed it was a major bit of jerkishness. It is more akin to littering. Multiply it by thousands of guests and it becomes major. It’s not littering if you put it in the wastebasket. Housekeeping has to empty the wastebasket anyway. One more piece of trash in the wastebasket adds no more work to emptying it (and they _do_ get paid, you know). Throwing away the spam is not trashing the room. Housekeeping has to the exact same amount of work if you don’t put the Bible in the trash as if you do. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/143 "2009-03-12T21:48:28Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > How about if they were leaving copies of _Playboy_ or _Penthouse_? Some people feel those magazines are demeaning to women. If someone morally objects to such publications are they entitled to throw those away? If it’s theirs, or a gift, or abandoned sure. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/144 "2009-03-12T21:50:37Z")
> [@](#): > > free stuff left out for guests in general ought to be used “in good faith” There is no establishment of “ggo faith” as it pertains to entities external to the hotel abandoning property in my room, because I never gave them permission to abandon it there in the first place. We have no agreement or contract. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/145 "2009-03-12T22:05:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not “elaborate,” it’s extremely simple. What’s left in the lobby is left for all guests. What’s left in my room is left for only ME. > > It’s not littering if you put it in the wastebasket. Housekeeping has to empty the wastebasket anyway. One more piece of trash in the wastebasket adds no more work to emptying it (and they _do_ get paid, you know). > > Throwing away the spam is not trashing the room. Housekeeping has to the exact same amount of work if you don’t put the Bible in the trash as if you do. Throwing entire books in the trash makes it a hell of a lot heavier than it otherwise would be. And someone has to replace it. Maybe it doesn’t seem like a big deal to you, but if 10 people a day did it, it could become a major pain. And, yes, they do get paid, but hourly. They don’t get more because you made extra work for them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/146 "2009-03-12T22:13:31Z")
They have to replace the Bibles if people take them home too, but everyone agrees it’s ok to take them home. If the best reason anyone can come up with not to throw the Bibles in the wastebaskets is the infinitessimal bit of extra work it takes to lift the basket, then that’s pretty lame. It takes extra work to throw away pizza boxes too (they don’t fit in the wastebaskets), but I bet that doesn’t stop any of you from ordering pizzas when you stay in motels. How about if **ianzin** takes the Bible outside and throws it in a dumpster? Does that take care of all the objections. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/147 "2009-03-12T22:22:18Z")
The point is that you’re making extra work for no good reason…no one knows or cares. But, hey, if you want to make extra work for the lady who is already picking your dirty towels up off the floor, I guess that’s your lookout. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/148 "2009-03-12T22:23:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not “elaborate,” it’s extremely simple. What’s left in the lobby is left for all guests. What’s left in my room is left for only ME. It is exactly the same. Stuff left for “all the guests” can only be taken by any one guest - just like stuff left in your room. > [@](#): > > It’s not littering if you put it in the wastebasket. Housekeeping has to empty the wastebasket anyway. One more piece of trash in the wastebasket adds no more work to emptying it (and they _do_ get paid, you know). > > Throwing away the spam is not trashing the room. Housekeeping has to the exact same amount of work if you don’t put the Bible in the trash as if you do. That just isn’t true. They have to restock the thing, as you yourself have noted. That is likely to take at least some time. You are imposing extra effort on the staff and thus extra costs on the hotel. The effort and costs may be minor in an individual case, but multiply them by thousands of guests and they add up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/149 "2009-03-12T22:35:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is exactly the same. Stuff left for “all the guests” can only be taken by any one guest - just like stuff left in your room. I’m not advocating taking anything not left in your own room, but whatever is abandoned in your own room is yours, period. It’s left specifically for YOU, not for “guests” in general. > [@](#): > > That just isn’t true. They have to restock the thing, as you yourself have noted. That is likely to take at least some time. They have to restock it if people take the Bibles home too, but no one has a problem with that. > [@](#): > > You are imposing extra effort on the staff and thus extra costs on the hotel. The effort and costs may be minor in an individual case, but multiply them by thousands of guests and they add up. This is incredibly weak, and where are you getting “thousands” from. It’s actually a pretty rare event that people trash or deface Bibles. It’s not like what happens when some places let spammers put Books of Mormon or Bhaghavad-Gita’s in the rooms and Christians go berserk carving them up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/150 "2009-03-12T22:42:13Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > The point is that you’re making extra work for no good reason…no one knows or cares. But, hey, if you want to make extra work for the lady who is already picking your dirty towels up off the floor, I guess that’s your lookout. The fact that no one knows or cares is not the point. **Ianzin** is pretty clear that he’s not doing it to send a message but to tidy up the room of abandoned litter. If the hotel doesn’t like the extra work, it doesn’t have to help the spammers put litter in the room. What about taking it outside and throwing it in a dumpster? Does that resove the “extra work” issue? Is it rude to have pizza deliver to the room since it makes extra work for the housekeepr to dispose of the boxes? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/151 "2009-03-12T22:52:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The fact that no one knows or cares is not the point. **Ianzin** is pretty clear that he’s not doing it to send a message but to tidy up the room of abandoned litter. If the hotel doesn’t like the extra work, it doesn’t have to help the spammers put litter in the room. > > What about taking it outside and throwing it in a dumpster? Does that resove the “extra work” issue? > > Is it rude to have pizza deliver to the room since it makes extra work for the housekeepr to dispose of the boxes? Well that doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not like the maid is going to have to replace the empty pizza boxes. Throwing away the bible is useless, pointless effort on the part of all concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/152 "2009-03-12T23:09:30Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well that doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s not like the maid is going to have to replace the empty pizza boxes. But it’s extra work for her to dispose of them, and, as I said, they have to replace the Bibles if people take them home, but no one says it’s rude to take them home. So if the fact that housekeeping has to replace them is the issue, then taking them home is just as rude. If the tiny bit of extra weight in the wastebasket is the issue, then that’s easy enough to resolve by disposing of the litter outside in a dumpster. > [@](#): > > Throwing away the bible is useless, pointless effort on the part of all concerned. Putting gift Bibles in the private rooms of people who didn’t ask for them and don’t want them is useless and pointless. Disposing of them is perfectly utile insofar as it removes excess litter from the room. There is no intent to “make a point.” just to tidy up the room. ---
**Author:** ![HawksPath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@HawksPath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawksPath)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/153 "2009-03-13T00:20:12Z")
To get back to the tearing down of flyers, I don’t do it but wish someone would many times. I also wish there was less grafitti. I say both because I just got a city events flyer about my city and it notes “Municpal Code prohibits the placement of signs on telephone poles, light standards or any other fixture on city streets, sidewalks and alleys.” ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/154 "2009-03-13T03:04:40Z")
I wonder if any theists reading this have the guts to admit if they have ever taken down fliers for atheist/freethinking/secular etc group meetings. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/155 "2009-03-13T03:12:33Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I wonder if any theists reading this have the guts to admit if they have ever taken down fliers for atheist/freethinking/secular etc group meetings. Nah, I stick to tearing down J4J and Kabbala Learning Center (the cult that Madonna is so into) stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/156 "2009-03-13T03:14:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Disposing of them is perfectly utile insofar as it removes excess litter from the room. Does tossing the Bible have a positive usefullness that outweighs the resources doing so wastes? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/157 "2009-03-13T03:23:01Z")
**Ianzin** Now that I think of it, I’m a bit surprised you don’t leave literature of your own- Something about John Edward or Uri Geller, Or Sylvia Browne being a fraud. Or just a general pamphlet giving instruction in skepticism and critical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/158 "2009-03-13T03:31:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But it’s extra work for her to dispose of them, and, as I said, they have to replace the Bibles if people take them home, but no one says it’s rude to take them home. So if the fact that housekeeping has to replace them is the issue, then taking them home is just as rude. If the tiny bit of extra weight in the wastebasket is the issue, then that’s easy enough to resolve by disposing of the litter outside in a dumpster. > > Putting gift Bibles in the private rooms of people who didn’t ask for them and don’t want them is useless and pointless. Disposing of them is perfectly utile insofar as it removes excess litter from the room. There is no intent to “make a point.” just to tidy up the room. Oh, sure, all he’s concerned with is how neat the inside of the nightstand drawer is! Give me a break. [QUOTE=Carol Stream] Does tossing the Bible have a positive usefullness that outweighs the resources doing so wastes? [/QUOTE] That’s my basic question, too. My argument is being misconstrued as having something to do with the fact that it’s a bible rather than any other book, or any other item for that matter. It makes no difference to me what a person does to a bible. Take it and throw it in the landfill, it doesn’t make a difference to me. It just seems utterly pointless. In terms of the subject of the OP, the only thing I’ve read about in this thread that I think is really what I would consider _wrong_ would be taking down posters that advertise an event, with the intent of keeping people from knowing about it. That really violates my idea of what free speech is supposed to be about. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/159 "2009-03-13T03:33:16Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > Does tossing the Bible have a positive usefullness that outweighs the resources doing so wastes? The person doing the tossing isn’t the one who wasted the resources. The person who put it in the room wasted the resources. A lot of trees die for junk mail. I’m still going to throw it away. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055/160 "2009-03-13T04:04:17Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > I wonder if any theists reading this have the guts to admit if they have ever taken down fliers for atheist/freethinking/secular etc group meetings. I am religious, and my original statement stands. > [@](#): > > Are you kidding? I’m a librarian. The idea of destroying a book/paper/piece of writing or censoring any idea just because it’s contrary to my personal beliefs goes against pretty much everything I believe in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-get-the-urge-to-deface-or-destroy-religious-propoganda-in-a-public-place/489055.md?page=9)