# Ever lived in a "Repressive" country? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659 "2010-10-19T14:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/41 "2010-10-20T18:31:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you the oldest member here? Don’t think I’m the oldest - must be getting pretty close, though. I’m quite curious as to who the record holder would be, but that should probably be the subject of another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/42 "2010-10-20T18:39:57Z")
I’m considering accepting a two-year gig in China. Are you saying that if I want to leave my house to drive to, say, Shanghai (looks to be only about 400 km), I’d have to get some additional government permission to do so? What if I wanted to take a train or plane? Or was the special permission needed because Tibet is special? I really plan on doing all of my research about taking the assignment at a later date, but, dang, this seems like a really good time to ask. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/43 "2010-10-20T19:34:06Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m considering accepting a two-year gig in China. Are you saying that if I want to leave my house to drive to, say, Shanghai (looks to be only about 400 km), I’d have to get some additional government permission to do so? What if I wanted to take a train or plane? Or was the special permission needed because Tibet is special? > > I really plan on doing all of my research about taking the assignment at a later date, but, dang, this seems like a really good time to ask. It is specific to the Tibetan Autonomous Region (and maybe Xinjiang). There are tourist controls and theoretically everyone going to the Tibetan Autonomous Region has to “join” an “offical tour group.” Most of the time this means booking your tickets through CITS. There are times when it gets more difficult and who freaking knows why. Generally, today, one can go to at least parts the Tibetan areas of Yunnan, Sichuan, Qinghai, Ningxia without joining the “official tour.” My understanding is that if you wanted to, you can personally drive throughout these areas without an issue. It’s been a while but a former BMW client of mine drove his BMW from Shenyang to Kashgar to Kunming and then back up north to Shenyang in 2007 (maybe 2008) without any special permission and had to pay bribes about twice to get past a checkpoint. Of course, that was before the latest Tibet blowup. Foreigners back in the 1980’s could only go to a limited number of “open” cities and places. You were required to get a special internal travel document (IIRC 旅行证) to go outside of the list. When I first went to China in 1985, there were only about 100 places you could legally go to in the entire country. That said, I travelled all over Western and Northern Sichuan, as well as Northern Yunnan. All one had to do was openly buy a bus ticket and get on the bus. The police in the local areas would usually come by on day 2 and ask you to go back to an open city ASAP (or more commonly ask you to go somewhere outside of my jurisdiction). These days, Chinese or foreigners have to show an ID for plane travel. You do NOT have to show an ID for trains, buses or driving your own car. This is a lot different from 1985 when the local chinese had to have the permission from their work unit aka dan wei aka 单位 (this no longer exists and with it the demise of cradle to the grave socialism and control). Your danwei used to control everything from your job, housing, whether you could marry or divorce, travel, company you could keep, whether you could get a bicycle, etc. I met a few local Chinese back in the 1980’s who were on the lam from their Work Unit begging with no money, food and serious trouble buying bus tickets. or finding a place to stay It was a pretty locked down environment. If you didn’t have the passes and the work unit letter, it was assumed you were guilty. While the police might not come for you, you probably could not eat in a restaurant, stay in a hotel or buy a bus ticket. the Hukou still affects people but there are upwards of 200 million migrant Chinese that are outside of the hukou system. People in at least the Tier 1 cities and probably down to the Tier 3 cities (at least 100 million+ people) are pretty much not affected to any significant degree. In fact, the only thing off the top of my head that the hukou affects people in Shanghai is for what public school you attend (it’s based on your hukou address, and people are constantly trying to get their kids into prestigious elementary schools). And the Hukou system also is much relaxed from the 1980’s. And if you have money these days, a Hukou can be “bought.” In the old days, you had to have the connections. Whilst authoratarian, I honestly don’t know what else China could do about the one child policy? China obviously has to do something as they already have overstretched their resources to support the population. Not sure one could argue that India, Indonesia or much of Africa is better off with massive overpopulation and no controls. That could be a whole nother debate. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/44 "2010-10-21T01:40:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Does the US under Bush II count? 😉 What about the US under Obama? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/45 "2010-10-21T06:59:15Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m considering accepting a two-year gig in China. Are you saying that if I want to leave my house to drive to, say, Shanghai (looks to be only about 400 km), I’d have to get some additional government permission to do so? What if I wanted to take a train or plane? Or was the special permission needed because Tibet is special? > > I really plan on doing all of my research about taking the assignment at a later date, but, dang, this seems like a really good time to ask. The law states that foreigners must have ID on their person. However this is our passport, which no one would carry around. However if you leave town, you must carry your passport. **Hotels especially**. My wife is Chinese and we stayed in a hotel in which we have been guests before, we spent the night but we were turned away because of my lack of ID. Trains and busses do not require ID. But during 2008 before rarely the Olympics my bus was stoped entering Shanghai which was an annoyance. But this happens rarely. Never been to Tibet. I have been near Tibet in western Sichuan in Kangding where I saw Tibetan people. Beautiful place. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/46 "2010-10-21T12:50:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > The law states that foreigners must have ID on their person. However this is our passport, which no one would carry around. However if you leave town, you must carry your passport. **Hotels especially**. My wife is Chinese and we stayed in a hotel in which we have been guests before, we spent the night but we were turned away because of my lack of ID. You mean your US passport, or some type of internal Chinese passport? I’m assuming that being a foreigner working in China, the Chinese authorities would give me some type of visa to carry around. For example here in Mexico, I’m required to have my visa on me at all times (because any police officer has the right to question my immigration status). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/47 "2010-10-21T13:03:30Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > You mean your US passport, or some type of internal Chinese passport? I’m assuming that being a foreigner working in China, the Chinese authorities would give me some type of visa to carry around. For example here in Mexico, I’m required to have my visa on me at all times (because any police officer has the right to question my immigration status). My worker’s visa to the US was attached to my Spanish passport, not a separate document like the Mexican Work Permit; I also had an American SS Card (not valid ID) but not a Work Permit that was a separate document. The Work Permit I got years before when I finished my Master’s was a separate card with my picture. My Mexican Work Permit was not valid ID, if questioned I had to produce both it and valid ID (either my Spanish passport, Spanish driver’s license or Spanish National ID worked). My Swiss Work Permits (no Visa required) were independent documents and valid ID. Foreigners residing in Spain can get a Spanish Foreigners ID; people coming in temporarily for work can’t; work visas are stamped on the passport, but work permits are independent non-ID documents… It’s one of those things that vary so much from place to place and case to case, at best you can assume “it’s probably been taken into account - but only ‘probably’”. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/48 "2010-10-21T13:07:41Z")
To answer the OP, no. And I have nothing to add to the discussion, but here’s [an earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=569530) on _hu kou_. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/49 "2010-10-21T14:37:59Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > You mean your US passport, or some type of internal Chinese passport? I’m assuming that being a foreigner working in China, the Chinese authorities would give me some type of visa to carry around. The visa is in your passport. There used to be a separate little ID booklet that fit in your wallet and was valid ID throughout China. It was phased out maybe 2-3 years ago. Note - a valid chinese drivers license is not considered valid ID In 15+ years of living in China, I have had to show ID for planes, usually hotels (good catch but I managed to get away without id at hotels dozens of times. keep a photocopy of main passport and visa page with you), a few times during SARs/Olympics. Also had to show my passport back in the 80’s when applying to go to closed areas. most notably when travelling in the tibetan areas of sichuan and yunnan I had to show my passport whenever I overstayed my welcome and got the ‘get out of Dodge’ treatment from the local police. The single time I had my passport taken away was in 1987 in northern sichuan Aba Tibetan region. I had been kicked out of a few towns and then when the first big Lhasa protests started, the word went out to detain any non Chinese in any Tibetan area. Passport taken, was escorted on a 2 day drive to the provincial capital of chengdu, questioned for an hour, passport returned and I was free to go. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/50 "2010-10-21T17:04:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Midnight](#): > > \ > > Other nations like Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, or Mongolia under Communism. Well, then, my mother qualifies. She was born in Poland during the Soviet/communist era. Required Russian classes, bread lines, all that crap. I remember visiting as a wee girl during the 80s, when the water was undrinkable and the toilet paper resembled fine-grit sandpaper. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/51 "2010-10-21T22:22:41Z")
I lived in Bulgaria long after the fall of communism (2006-2008), but of course I knew loads and loads of people there who had lived through it. I lived in rural areas that benefited from the communist system and have done really poorly under the free market system, so most people spoke with great nostalgia about communism. Now, there are a lot more things available in the stores than there were back then, but things are also much more chaotic and unstable. There’s greater freedom, but most people don’t have the money to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/52 "2010-10-21T22:58:34Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Well, then, my mother qualifies. She was born in Poland during the Soviet/communist era. Required Russian classes, bread lines, all that crap. I remember visiting as a wee girl during the 80s, when the water was undrinkable and the toilet paper resembled fine-grit sandpaper. Forgive the hijack, but when & how did she manage to emigrate? ---
**Author:** ![may\_be\_ignorant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c5a1d2/32.png) [@may\_be\_ignorant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/may_be_ignorant)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/53 "2010-10-21T23:01:38Z")
One of my closest friends came from Russia with his brother and sister. He has some pretty messed up stories. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/54 "2010-10-21T23:15:34Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I think the citizens of many of these countries will be very surprised to learn that they live in repressive countries. > > Many Arabs I know find London\* to be boring, since the bloody place except for Bars and nightclubs closes at 8. > \*Well yes not really there are places which remain open but the point is in most middle eastern countries all shops an d markets routinely remain open past 1 am. Bars and nightclubs tend to be what make a place “not boring,” though . . .are they bemoaning the lack of late-night drug stores? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/55 "2010-10-22T07:09:58Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Bars and nightclubs tend to be what make a place “not boring,” though . . .are they bemoaning the lack of late-night drug stores? Only a place with bad weather. I remember reading an interview with a Dutch footballer who, when asked what had surprised him most about Barcelona, answered “in Holland, people live and party at home; here, people live and party on the street.” Las Ramblas, a “tubo” (northern Spain word for a long street in the local old town with lots of bars; may or may not have restaurants, hotels and hippy stores) or a souk are lively and entertaining without ever entering a shop or bar. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/56 "2010-10-22T12:11:30Z")
I lived in South Africa between 1973 and 1982, but I was nine when we left and white so it might not count ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/57 "2010-10-22T12:51:06Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > Are you kidding?! :eek: > > I had a census guy at my door recently, but beyond that I can’t think of any role at all that the “government” plays in influencing my life decisions, those of my family members, or any of my friends. Yes, I am not Chinese, but I am a member of a Chinese family and that is, basically, as close as any non-Chinese resident of China will ever come to being “Chinese” without naturalizing. > > What role does the Chinese government play in, say, selecting a marriage partner, choosing a job, buying a car, buying a house, raising children, etc? I would certainly consider those “basic life decisions” but can’t figure out at all where the government would factor in. And of course, one could argue that the choices of what to read, or what television program to watch, or what website to visit, are all fairly important life decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/58 "2010-10-22T13:08:52Z")
To the China wonks: Obviously, interacting with the government in any authoritarian state will sometimes be a strange experience (i.e., **Even Sven’s** Tibet trip.). But is that normally how interactions with the government go in China? If I’m a tourist and I ask a cop for directions, will I get directions or a demand for a bribe? What if I’m a citizen? I’m used to government being a fundamentally benign influence on my life, and government officials trying to be friendly and helpful. Is that the norm in China? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/59 "2010-10-22T14:18:03Z")
Tourists shouldn’t normally encounter any of this stuff. In fact, there is a lot of effort spent making sure tourists are as comfortable as possible, and it really is a wonderful place to travel. The only sorts of problems a tourist is likely to run in to is stuff like local governments forcing all organized tours to spend time in shopping areas, or the occasional bit of bureaucracy leading to long lines at the airport and the whatnot. Ordinary citizens have plenty of run-ins with unhelpful officials, especially if they are not well connected. It’s rarely about bribes, directly (although if you start a business you are going to want to wine and dine local officials.) And it’s not that the officials in general are any worse than anywhere else. It’s just that if one person in the right spot has something against you, he can make all sorts of things difficult for you. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659/60 "2010-10-23T21:54:35Z")
I lived in Franco’s Spain for a few years as a kid, then as a college student in Togo, at the time under the thumb of one of Africa’s longest-serving dictators, the imperishable General Gnassingbe Eyadema. It was ugly, though the ugliness was largely out of public view. I did hear things, though, from the embassy – professors of mine who had been tortured to adjust their point of view, that kind of thing. Don’t remember much about Franco, I was just a kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-lived-in-a-repressive-country/557659.md?page=4)