# Ever seen a miracle or other supernatural thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608 "2010-02-11T22:26:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/61 "2010-02-17T01:48:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is where you are in error, supernaturally you can have both, miracles do not follow logic, nor do they have to follow any rules. God is not bound by the limits of the human mind. He can make it rain on one person and be fog for the other standing right next to each other and arrange things that each person doesn’t know what is going on with the other. In scriptures the apostles were talking to people in one language (Galilean) and each person heard it in their own native language. In your logic it was either Galilean or not, God says otherwise. Nitpick. Acts 2:4 says the disciples were actually speaking those tongues. Still presented as miracle, but let’s at least get the basic account as it was written. Otherwise, any credibility you may wish to have here is gone (if not already). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/62 "2010-02-17T01:55:33Z")
[sappy and a little unnecessarily graphic at the end] Yes, when my little angel came down from heaven through my wife’s vagina. [/saalugate] ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/63 "2010-02-17T01:58:30Z")
In the supernatural realm. In my high school years two things happened at about the same time. My good friend moved to the other end of the state. And my beloved cat of many years died. Not too long after that, I was fitfully sleeping. At one point I felt pressure on my legs. In my sleeply mind I thought “awww…my cats come to sleep at my feet”. A bit later it became “oh shit, the cats dead! What the hell is THAT on my blanket above my legs?!”. We had a rats in the attic problem at the time, so that became an obvious answer. Now, fully awake, I laid there in terror quite aware of the pressure on the blanket above my legs. Eventually, I had the nerve to leap up and turn on the lights expecting epic battle. Upon doing so, there was nothing there. Okay, that was strange and terrifying. No rat, maybe the ghost of the cat? The next morning my recently displaced friend calls. Seems that at about the same time this event happened to me something rather strange happened to him. Some neighborhood ferret had escaped, entered their house, and got on the end of his bed to sleep. He thought it was his cat (and he didnt like the cats on his bed), so he tried to push it off with his foot. Well, that particular ferret didnt like it and attacked him. Real story honest to og. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/64 "2010-02-17T01:59:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > …miracles do not follow logic, nor do they have to follow any rules. One could say the same about religion. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/65 "2010-02-17T03:17:10Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > One could say the same about religion. You could say it about faith and spirituality, but religion is a set of rules and rituals, so no you could not. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/66 "2010-02-17T03:26:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > [sappy and a little unnecessarily graphic at the end] > > Yes, when my little angel came down from heaven through my wife’s vagina. > > [/saalugate] Best description of a miracle _ever_. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/67 "2010-02-17T03:56:58Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > And judging by the descriptions of the vision given, it doesn’t sound like boring pareidolia either. Why not? A phenomenon is described by somebody and more and more people, as they listen to what they should see, whether as Marianists or fans of The Emperor’s New Clothes, suddenly start to see it, but NOBODY ELSE ON EARTH NOTICES THAT THE FREAKIN’ SUN HAS BEGUN TO DANCE AROUND THE SKY, how is it different. And kindly don’t give me that totally-lame excuse that “maybe because the miracle was intended to be viewed by people only within a certain radius?” Either the Sun miraculously danced around the sky or it didn’t. Anything in between is an optical illusion. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/68 "2010-02-17T18:40:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is where you are in error, supernaturally you can have both, miracles do not follow logic, nor do they have to follow any rules. God is not bound by the limits of the human mind. He can make it rain on one person and be fog for the other standing right next to each other and arrange things that each person doesn’t know what is going on with the other. In scriptures the apostles were talking to people in one language (Galilean) and each person heard it in their own native language. In your logic it was either Galilean or not, God says otherwise. What you have described is illusion. “and arrange things that each person doesn’t know what is going on with the other.” This is a distortion of perception, which is pretty much the _definition_ of illusion. Which is exactly what I said it had to be. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/69 "2010-02-17T20:59:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What you have described is illusion. “and arrange things that each person doesn’t know what is going on with the other.” This is a distortion of perception, which is pretty much the _definition_ of illusion. Which is exactly what I said it had to be. No, a illusion 1: follows the physical laws 2: have logical explanations 3: Only have a single true reality. Miracles do not have to follow any of those rules. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/70 "2010-02-17T21:04:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is where you are in error, supernaturally you can have both, miracles do not follow logic, nor do they have to follow any rules. God is not bound by the limits of the human mind. Would it then be correct to say that there have been many miracles in the world, and that there have been zero miracles in the world? That through miracles great and good things have been done, and through miracles horrifying and evil things have been done? ---
**Author:** ![A.Selene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ec8ea/32.png) [@A.Selene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.Selene)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/71 "2010-02-17T21:19:43Z")
To those that have posted miracles: [www.whywon’tgothealamputees.com](http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/) People say prayers are answered and miracles happen all the time. But the events either can’t be corrobarated or are things that could have happened without supernatural intervention. Back pain going away? You don’t need God for that to happen. Now if an amputee miraculously grew back a limb… now that would be something. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/72 "2010-02-17T21:22:19Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Would it then be correct to say that there have been many miracles in the world, and that there have been zero miracles in the world? I don’t know if it could be said that zero, but it is possible, but many and few I’d go along without any issue. > [@](#): > > That through miracles great and good things have been done, and through miracles horrifying and evil things have been done? I’m not sure I’d go along with this. Miracles is the glory of God displayed on earth. They are a direct act of God, and therefor has to be good. Though one comes to mind, the withering of the fig tree, which seems more like Jesus in the flesh caused it to wither and die, then again the promise that ‘all things are working for the good’ would mean that even that would work for the good. As for the OT miracles, 1 Yes I believe every one was ‘good’, 2 The understanding of OT is only by God’s revelation and conventional wisdom of it is mostly incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/73 "2010-02-17T21:25:15Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > To those that have posted miracles: [www.whywon’tgothealamputees.com](http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/) People say prayers are answered and miracles happen all the time. But the events either can’t be corrobarated or are things that could have happened without supernatural intervention. Back pain going away? You don’t need God for that to happen. Now if an amputee miraculously grew back a limb… now that would be something. I’ve heard what may be a prophetic utterance that it doesn’t happen because people are looking at God as a healer, instead of the creator, so He is just healing. I do expect to see such things as limbs restored by our Creator God, done in the name of Jesus, in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/74 "2010-02-17T21:33:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’ve heard what may be a prophetic utterance that it doesn’t happen because people are looking at God as a healer, instead of the creator, so He is just healing. That sounds like a rule - and you said miracles aren’t bound by rules. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/75 "2010-02-17T21:44:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t know if it could be said that zero, but it is possible, but many and few I’d go along without any issue. If miracles do not follow logic, by what method that does not involve logic do you deduce this? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure I’d go along with this. Miracles is the glory of God displayed on earth. They are a direct act of God, and therefor has to be good. Then it is inaccurate to say that they do not follow logic, or any rules. “That which is a direct act by God must be good” is a rule. That miracles fulfil that premise requires logic. The very word “therefore” implies that there is a logical proceeding; A, therefore B. Without logic, A can be B, C, D, all, and none, all at once. Without logic, miracles can be both bad and good, saintly or terrible, or all, or none. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/76 "2010-02-17T22:57:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, a illusion 1: follows the physical laws 2: have logical explanations 3: Only have a single true reality. > > Miracles do not have to follow any of those rules. Where did you find _these_? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/77 "2010-02-18T00:29:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I’ve heard what may be a prophetic utterance that it doesn’t happen because **people are looking at God as a healer, instead of the creator** , so He is just healing. I do expect to see such things as limbs restored by our Creator God, done in the name of Jesus, in my life. What does the bolded part mean? Surely Christians look at God as the creator? Are you saying that God will only heal amputees when everyone (or a sufficient number of people) acknowledges God as the creator? ---
**Author:** ![dragoncat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6a8cbe/32.png) [@dragoncat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dragoncat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/78 "2010-02-18T00:50:04Z")
I have seen a miracle (at least according to the criteria given in the OP) which I see every day and so does every other sighted person on earth. Even though we know for a scientific fact that the earth moves around the sun (primarily), I perceive the earth as entirely stationary and I see the sun actually moving!!! From one side of the sky to the other!!! As if the sun actually moved AROUND the earth!!! Now come on, tell me that others didn’t see this too, I challenge you! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/79 "2010-02-18T00:56:12Z")
> [@dragoncat](#): > > I have seen a miracle (at least according to the criteria given in the OP) which I see every day and so does every other sighted person on earth. Even though we know for a scientific fact that the earth moves around the sun (primarily), I perceive the earth as entirely stationary and I see the sun actually moving!!! From one side of the sky to the other!!! As if the sun actually moved AROUND the earth!!! Now come on, tell me that others didn’t see this too, I challenge you! I don’t see that every day. Sometimes it’s cloudy. (OMG the sun disappears its a miracle!) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/80 "2010-02-18T01:22:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What you’re missing is that for the appearance of the sun to be “dancing,” the earth itself would have to be dancing. Not at all. The sun could be the one moving. Of course, with no agreed-upon frame of reference, it’s meaningless to say that one is moving and the other is standing still. But what I mean by “the sun is the one that’s moving,” is that the frame of reference is the solar plane. The planets continue to move in their orbits in the solar plane, while the sun dances around like Larry Craig after a nice bathroom break. > [@](#): > > If the contention is that the sun itself was literally dancing, then it woulld have greatly affected the planets in closer orbit, probably slinging Mercury out of its orbit. Why? Perhaps it did disturb Mercury’s orbit. Perhaps Mercury’s current obit is the result of that long-ago disturbance, and it was different before. > [@](#): > > Hell, it would probably sling the earth out of its orbit, but I don’t know the math. I do know that comparing it to the moon makes no sense since the earth is not in orbit around the moon, thus cannot have its orbit affected by the movements of the moon. The comparison to the moon was to show the miniscule effect that the Sun’s gravyity would have on our geologic stability in the short term by pointing out that the Moon’s influence on tides is twice as strong as the sun’s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608.md?page=5)