# Ever seen a miracle or other supernatural thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608 "2010-02-11T22:26:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/101 "2010-02-19T00:25:03Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But the concept of opposites requires logic. That one thing cannot be what it is not requires logic. Without logic, black is white, round is square. Without logic good and evil are the same thing; to say that they are opposites, that nothing that is good can be evil, is an argument that rests on logic. And if they do not need to follow logic, then if God does good then he does evil, or at least there is no reason to assume doing one means not doing the other also. Your position is not necessarily true - one can also axiomatically _define_ good and evil as opposites. Or as synonymous with goddidit and goddidntdoit respectively. Or as orange and orange respectively. Declarations aren’t logic, even if the declarations in question happen to turn out to be logically self-consistent (if logic were to be applied). This is an example of a non-logical argument system, by the way. Argument by assertion - if everything is simply asserted, logic isn’t being employed. If anything is _inferred_, though, then logic _is_ being applied. So any extrapolation from the initial assertions is an act of logic - or at least an _attempt_ at logic, even if it’s invalid in form. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/102 "2010-02-19T00:50:35Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Your position is not necessarily true - one can also axiomatically _define_ good and evil as opposites. Or as synonymous with goddidit and goddidntdoit respectively. Or as orange and orange respectively. Declarations aren’t logic, even if the declarations in question happen to turn out to be logically self-consistent (if logic were to be applied). Fair point. But you need to get those definitions from somewhere; if you have some reason to define them as you do, then you’ll need logic. Or they could simply be random definitions, but in that case, they aren’t very useful. And even then, as you say, you’d have to assert each and every thing, which while possible doesn’t seem like a likely source of personal belief. If **kanicbird** does rely on assertions and no inferences, fair play to him. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/103 "2010-02-19T00:58:28Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Fair point. But you need to get those definitions from somewhere; if you have some reason to define them as you do, then you’ll need logic. Or they could simply be random definitions, but in that case, they aren’t very useful. And even then, as you say, you’d have to assert each and every thing, which while possible doesn’t seem like a likely source of personal belief. If **kanicbird** does rely on assertions and no inferences, fair play to him. They make whole books of assertions, you know. There’s one I’m thinking of, the “bibbel” or something… Just because the person who wrote them may (or may not) have been spending brain cells trying to come up with a logically consistent narrative doesn’t require the person reading them to apply logic in the absorption or repetition of them. That said, though, it is _clearly_ the case that **kanicbird** infers the living hell out of the bible, ranging off to some rather out-there conclusions not held by many or most of the people who are doing a less intellectually energetic read-and-repeat of it. And these inferences are within the realm of logic - regardless of how fallacy-ridden they may or may not be\*. (Not to say they are - with screwy enough premises you can get awfully strange conclusions - and with contradictory premises you can technically derive _anything!_) ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/104 "2010-02-19T01:10:15Z")
I saw a nerdy close friend get a girls phone number once, if there is such a thing that sure counts as a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/105 "2010-02-19T02:12:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, in terms of miracles there _was_ the 1980 U.S. Olympic ice hockey team. And never forget the 1969 Mets. If that wasn’t some kind of miracle, I don’t know what is 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/106 "2010-02-19T03:27:02Z")
I found love/love found me, isn’t that the only miracle that really matters anyway? And isn’t it always a miracle, manifest right in our lives? (no not God love, you sick freaks!) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/107 "2010-02-19T16:31:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I take it you’ve got an original first edition of the Bible you refer to? Where might we obtain a copy? Pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then keep a eye out for a visit by Jesus, He’ll deliver it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/108 "2010-02-19T16:40:34Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > In all honesty, if you have a way to argue those points without using logic, i’d very much want to know. Considerable amounts of my own personal beliefs are based on logic being pretty important, so if you have a way to “bypass” logic, i’d be sincerely interested. The Holy Spirit can bypass man’s logic and usually does. The way to go about it is using the truth that God gives us. This is the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God (from Eph 6). When someone makes a untrue, but logical statement, the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the falsehood of that statement by giving one the exact verse(s) that exposes the truth. To the degree that you believe the Word of God is truth is to the degree this will work, but it is God’s job to prove His Word, not yours or mine. God has proven that His word is what truth is to me. As pointed out in another post the Bible is not logical by man’s standard, but it does prove itself, to me at least, every time. So it gives me a choice, use logic and be incorrect on occasion, or defy logic and just go with the leading of the Holy Spirit and be correct all the time, even to the point that God will do miracles to make it correct. What would be the logical path to chose? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/109 "2010-02-19T17:26:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Holy Spirit can bypass man’s logic and usually does. The way to go about it is using the truth that God gives us. This is the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God (from Eph 6). When someone makes a untrue, but logical statement, the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the falsehood of that statement by giving one the exact verse(s) that exposes the truth. > > To the degree that you believe the Word of God is truth is to the degree this will work, but it is God’s job to prove His Word, not yours or mine. God has proven that His word is what truth is to me. > > As pointed out in another post the Bible is not logical by man’s standard, but it does prove itself, to me at least, every time. > > So it gives me a choice, use logic and be incorrect on occasion, or defy logic and just go with the leading of the Holy Spirit and be correct all the time, even to the point that God will do miracles to make it correct. What would be the logical path to chose? This isn’t even _internally_ logical. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/110 "2010-02-19T17:28:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then keep a eye out for a visit by Jesus, He’ll deliver it. Your life seems to be one big “Mary Sue” story. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/111 "2010-02-19T19:40:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then keep a eye out for a visit by Jesus, He’ll deliver it. Sooo… if I pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then Jesus will visit me in person and hand-deliver a copy of the original first edition of the Bible? The imagery here is staggering. Will Jesus wear a postal service uniform when delivering the book, or maybe a FedEx outfit? Will the book be free, or will it be COD? Will Jesus expect me to give him a tip? I’ve found prayer to be a very ineffective medium to send messages through - I must be in a low-reception area. I don’t suppose there’s a postal address I can send to or a website I can go to to order my free copy instead? ETA: also, I don’t know any ancient languages. Can I order a copy with an accurate english translation attached? And it’d be nice to get it hardbound rather than as a cheap paperback or a loose pile of ancient papyruses - I’d be willing to pay a little extra for an upgrade. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/112 "2010-02-19T20:05:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Sooo… if I pray to the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, then Jesus will visit me in person and hand-deliver a copy of the original first edition of the Bible? > > The imagery here is staggering. Will Jesus wear a postal service uniform when delivering the book, or maybe a FedEx outfit? Will the book be free, or will it be COD? Will Jesus expect me to give him a tip? > > I’ve found prayer to be a very ineffective medium to send messages through - I must be in a low-reception area. I don’t suppose there’s a postal address I can send to or a website I can go to to order my free copy instead? > > ETA: also, I don’t know any ancient languages. Can I order a copy with an accurate english translation attached? And it’d be nice to get it hardbound rather than as a cheap paperback or a loose pile of ancient papyruses - I’d be willing to pay a little extra for an upgrade. Why should he help you out? You’ll just turn around and sell it on eBay. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/113 "2010-02-19T20:10:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why should he help you out? You’ll just turn around and sell it on eBay. You and begbert2 go way back, don’t y’all? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/114 "2010-02-19T20:12:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > …So it gives me a choice, use logic and be incorrect on occasion, or defy logic and just go with the leading of the Holy Spirit and be correct all the time, even to the point that God will do miracles to make it correct. What would be the logical path to chose? How in the living fuck can you chose a “logical path” if your other choice is “defying logic”? Maybe it’s just me, but seriously, most of your posts on this issue don’t make a lick of sense. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/115 "2010-02-19T21:16:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Holy Spirit can bypass man’s logic and usually does. The way to go about it is using the truth that God gives us. This is the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God (from Eph 6). When someone makes a untrue, but logical statement, the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the falsehood of that statement by giving one the exact verse(s) that exposes the truth. > > To the degree that you believe the Word of God is truth is to the degree this will work, but it is God’s job to prove His Word, not yours or mine. God has proven that His word is what truth is to me. > > As pointed out in another post the Bible is not logical by man’s standard, but it does prove itself, to me at least, every time. The problem, for me at least, on this, is that I could say exactly the same about anything. I too could claim that God has spoken to me and declared to me what truth is. I could claim that instead Satan has; or that Zeus has; or any number of gods or supernatural beings. I could even claim that the glass sitting on my desk has told me these things. If we ourselves declare these things to be above, or beyond, logic, then there’s no reason for me to accept one over any of the other. Each of those things, without logic, provides me the exact same thing; an assertion that they are correct, and a list of those things which they decree. I have no way to measure one against another, and I have no way to infer from a particular point of theirs a new point - if God says to me, “Murder is a sin”, with logic I may apply that to my own situation, and so not murder. Without logic, I have no reason to think that message applies to me, or to anyone. And without logic I have no means to judge the worthiness of a particular godly being - I can’t compare them to other beings or a lack of them. > [@](#): > > So it gives me a choice, use logic and be incorrect on occasion, or defy logic and just go with the leading of the Holy Spirit and be correct all the time, even to the point that God will do miracles to make it correct. What would be the logical path to chose? But you’re demonstratably not correct all the time. I mean, we’re debating. If you were correct all the time, then you would know the right words to convince me of your points. Even if my vision is clouded by the faith I lack, you would still know the correct method of making me understand your point. But you haven’t; you’ve selected (so far, at least ;)) an incorrect method of persuasion. And as of yet God has performed no miracles to transform your argument into something correct. Beyond that, even if your premises are correct, it’s still not the logical choice to do something when your initial premises declare logic to be useless. If logic is useless, then neither choice can be logically correct, or incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/116 "2010-02-19T21:53:31Z")
When I say “logic” I usually mean “organized thought” - since that’s kinda what logic is. When somebody tells me to discard logic in favor of some other avenue of things, I hear them as saying “discard thinking”. And let’s keep in mind that the thinking implied by logic, especially _formal_ logic, is _really_ basic stuff. It’s like “if God says murder is bad, and I murder, then I’ve done bad.” Yes, that’s a logical argument (modus ponens, to be specific), and when you draw this conclusion you **are** doing logic. To “defy logic”, you would have to fail to recognize that specific acts of murder are bad - _anything_ that you arrive at through thought would be verboten. Because logic is this simple and certain, because discarding it is literally discarding one’s entire ability to think, I find it literally unbelievable that anything that you have to discard logic to accept will be true. If something can only be believed if you refrain from thinking about it, then it not only isn’t true, it’s _obviously_ not true - pretty much by definition. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/117 "2010-02-19T22:10:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why should he help you out? You’ll just turn around and sell it on eBay. Well, it would be worth a _ton_ of money - if I could prove that it was real, that is. I wonder if I can get a certificate of authenticity along with it if I pray a little harder? ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/118 "2010-02-19T22:12:20Z")
I used to spend a good deal of time in cemeteries and “haunted” locations. In my younger, more naive years, I was quite a believer in psychic phenomena, especially “survival phenomena”. In short, I was prime meat for experiencing the supernatural. Never happened. The closest I can think of was when I was defecating in a rural cemetery outhouse and distinctly heard someone clear their throat outside. I was alone in the cemetery when I went in, and there was no one around when I came out. That said, it was certainly possible that someone came around whilst I was indisposed, discerned that the facilities were occupied, then departed. I’ve also been known to have minor auditory hallucinations when sleep-deprived (which I may have been–I honestly don’t remember), so my very perceptions may be questionable. I am, in the grand scheme of things, just one data point, but damn I courted the ghosts for a long time – and never got so much as a dropped hanky. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/119 "2010-02-20T00:39:33Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > The problem, for me at least, on this, is that I could say exactly the same about anything. I too could claim that God has spoken to me and declared to me what truth is. I could claim that instead Satan has; or that Zeus has; or any number of gods or supernatural beings. I could even claim that the glass sitting on my desk has told me these things. If we ourselves declare these things to be above, or beyond, logic, then there’s no reason for me to accept one over any of the other. Yes you could claim those things, I am in a search for God, a desire to know Him more, part of that is witnessing to others, part of that is telling the truth, as if I lie about Him it has a opposite effect and will move me away from Him. Yes you could say what if I’m making this whole thing up, including this part, well that is up to you. You have read many of my posts, we have replied back and forth many times, you have prayed that God leads you. You have to decide if what I am saying I truly believe, or I’m yanking your chain. > [@](#): > > Each of those things, without logic, provides me the exact same thing; an assertion that they are correct, and a list of those things which they decree. I have no way to measure one against another, Then don’t measure, just explore, see where it leads. > [@](#): > > But you’re demonstratably not correct all the time. I mean, we’re debating. If you were correct all the time, then you would know the right words to convince me of your points. Re-read your post. You can’t convince people you are right just because you are right. > [@](#): > > Even if my vision is clouded by the faith I lack, you would still know the correct method of making me understand your point. But you haven’t; you’ve selected (so far, at least ;)) an incorrect method of persuasion. And as of yet God has performed no miracles to transform your argument into something correct. God works in His timing, which sometimes seems to take way too long. I have to be faithful to how God is leading me. It is not me who has to convince you, it is God, acting directly and through His people. I am just one servant of His. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608/120 "2010-02-20T04:16:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I knew I was protected by God at the time, I felt no fear, just interest in what He was going to do, then all of a sudden their hands came off me, and they tried but could not grape me anymore, I turned around, and although they were all around me, there was a opening between them at the same time, which I walked right through and away. What a coincidence!! God protects me, too!! In my case though, He protects me from leading my life based on superstitious myths and fairy tales, which is a bit of a paradox. Ahhhh… but a fabricated God works is mysteriously fabricated ways, doesn’t He? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ever-seen-a-miracle-or-other-supernatural-thing/528608.md?page=7)